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What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

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Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#381

Post by rodgerd »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #109
deutschepost wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard a pretty good interpretation of why these questions exist. If you say that you don't plan to commit crimes and then commit one, you have essentially lied on the form. In some cases at least it is way easier for the state to deport someone if they lie on their immigration form. But if the question wasn't there you would have to go through the whole legal process. On the other hand, if you answer yes to this qu…

Why would it be easier to deport someone for lying on a form rather than for being a terrorist?

If I said, in the US, "Peter Thiel is a woman-hating monster and the country would be better if he and every politician on his payroll was swinging from a lamppost Mussolini style" it would be difficult to make any case that I was doing anything not covered by first amendment protections.

If I'm a visitor to the country and say the same thing having signed an affirmation that I'm not going to advocate for violent overthrow of the US government it's not a first amendment case, it's a lying-on-immigration-forms case and out I do.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#382

Post by foobarbecue »

Slava_Propanei wrote: post #200
foobarbecue wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Fox News joke removed since upon further reflection it wasn't funny] Seriously though, I suppose I was misusing the word "evidence" here... I haven't actually studied this beyond observing and talking to people I know. I would also be interested in reading on the topic if anyone can suggest something!

Ah yes, Fox News. The source of all bad thought is not the global liberal hegemony, but rather its kayfabe opposition.

Vouching for this. It's off-topic and a little inflammatory but I started that, and it taught me the word kayfabe. Thanks to dang for introducing me to the vouch feature.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#383

Post by walrus01 »

KMag wrote: post #264
matwood wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is surprising because it's the exact wrong thing to do. Past drug use will not disqualify you from a clearance, but lying absolutely will. Depending on the clearance level they will interview a number of people, including second degree connections. I know someone who used to be an investigator, and it surprised me when they told me how often first degree connections would say bad things about their 'friend'.

Yea, sounds like terrible advice. I tried pot a couple of times in college, honestly really disliked what it did to my memory, and disclosed it on my EPSQ 2.2 clearance paperwork. I had absolutely no problems. The background check folks never even asked me about it. The main reasons people betray their country are MICE (Money, Ideology, Coercion, Ego). Drugs might be expensive (money), might themselves be a secret yo…

The "MICE" model of understanding behavior like Robert Hanssen, etc has also been extended to RASCLS:

http://dustinkmacdonald.com/recruiting-intelligence-assets-w...

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=RASCLS+in...

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#384

Post by ipaddr »

sealeck wrote: post #116
jstanley wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you might legitimately not be planning to commit any crimes, but then change your mind once you get there. The fact that you committed a crime after saying you weren't planning to do so does not mean that you were lying.

Are you a lawyer? :D

Ask 5 lawyers and get 5 answers. Either way it doesn't matter unless that person is your lawyer.

I would have ask if they were a judge. At least they are tasked with weighing the facts and deciding and not fighting for one point of view

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#385

Post by ipaddr »

Delphiza wrote: post #233
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be easier to deport someone for lying on a form rather than for being a terrorist?

The Oz government used some similar loophole (or threatened to use it) with the Djokovic covid saga at the Australian open. As I recall, a judge said that he could get a visa for whatever covid medical exemption reasons, but on his immigration form he said that he hadn't been travelling elsewhere. Social media proved otherwise, so he was caught in an easily provable lie on an immigration form. He was then able to be…

All it did was reflect poorly on Australia.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#386

Post by berniedurfee »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #316
matwood wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is surprising because it's the exact wrong thing to do. Past drug use will not disqualify you from a clearance, but lying absolutely will. Depending on the clearance level they will interview a number of people, including second degree connections. I know someone who used to be an investigator, and it surprised me when they told me how often first degree connections would say bad things about their 'friend'.

I would also expect lying to be a bigger red flag compared to past drug use, and while it seems these stories invalidate such an idea, I believe they actually validate it: these are stories of people who did get security clearance and they were honest, the ripping up part is more like a symbolic gesture from the system "let's both pretend none of that happened". These stories don't mean the person would have past whe…

That's my understanding as well. Lying on a clearance application is far worse than admitting to many criminal acts.

The thought is that someone could blackmail you into revealing secrets by threatening to expose your lie, thus causing you to losing your clearance, job or worse.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#387

Post by dragonwriter »

berniedurfee wrote: post #386
DoctorOetker wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also expect lying to be a bigger red flag compared to past drug use, and while it seems these stories invalidate such an idea, I believe they actually validate it: these are stories of people who did get security clearance and they were honest, the ripping up part is more like a symbolic gesture from the system "let's both pretend none of that happened". These stories don't mean the person would have past whe…

That's my understanding as well. Lying on a clearance application is far worse than admitting to many criminal acts. The thought is that someone could blackmail you into revealing secrets by threatening to expose your lie, thus causing you to losing your clearance, job or worse.

> Lying on a clearance application is far worse than admitting to many criminal acts.

For one thing, admitting to past criminal acts doesn’t add a new criminal act with the statute of limitations clock at 0, whereas lying in any official government process, like a security clearance application, does.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#388

Post by walrus01 »

notafraudster wrote: post #112
matwood wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is surprising because it's the exact wrong thing to do. Past drug use will not disqualify you from a clearance, but lying absolutely will. Depending on the clearance level they will interview a number of people, including second degree connections. I know someone who used to be an investigator, and it surprised me when they told me how often first degree connections would say bad things about their 'friend'.

Yeah. My father didn't do secure work, but he was an immigrant to the country where I was born. As part of the immigration process, he was asked whether he had ever been arrested (maybe it was charged, I don't recall and he's long gone so I can't ask). He said "no". In fact, he had been arrested as a pre-teen for stealing an idling tractor and joyriding in rural post-war England. Immigration authorities don't care th…

On the other hand, you can answer this too truthfully and just screw yourself up for no reason. Example: I know Afghan former translators/employees for ISAF projects who have been arrested by Pakistani "authorities", local police in various cities just for the purpose of shaking them down for bribes/money.

I can guarantee you that no record of any such arrest exists in paper or electronic form anywhere in a database that can be queried in Pakistan, even if US immigration authorities had a way to get cooperation from Pakistani federal police authorities without involving very high-level diplomatic contacts. Answering truthfully on a question like that will just fuck up your own case.

Is it still being legitimately arrested if you've been detained unlawfully for a shakedown by corrupt police? The same happens in many developing nations. It's actually more like being kidnapped.

Some of the process of using other data sources to verify that what a person has said is truthful/factually accurate only works if you're dealing with people coming from places with non-corrupted legitimate record keeping and bureaucratic processes.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#389

Post by [deleted] »

walrus01 wrote: post #388
notafraudster wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. My father didn't do secure work, but he was an immigrant to the country where I was born. As part of the immigration process, he was asked whether he had ever been arrested (maybe it was charged, I don't recall and he's long gone so I can't ask). He said "no". In fact, he had been arrested as a pre-teen for stealing an idling tractor and joyriding in rural post-war England. Immigration authorities don't care th…

On the other hand, you can answer this too truthfully and just screw yourself up for no reason. Example: I know Afghan former translators/employees for ISAF projects who have been arrested by Pakistani "authorities", local police in various cities just for the purpose of shaking them down for bribes/money. I can guarantee you that no record of any such arrest exists in paper or electronic form anywhere in a database…

[deleted]

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#390

Post by ipaddr »

quocanh wrote: post #345
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't mean that Americans are more brutally honest in social interactions. In my experience, Americans commonly (admittedly, not always) avoid topics and observations which they think a listening party would find uncomfortable.

This actually reminds me of something I've been thinking about lately. What we call honesty is actually two different things: truthfulness and openness. Americans are probably truthful and not open.

Like Canadians are polite but not friendly
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