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What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

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Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#191

Post by jat850 »

werdnapk wrote: post #162
NikolaNovak wrote: post #149

When I moved to Canada, at age 16-17 I initially failed a lot of job applications at places like Staples, Future Shop, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. For some reason, many of them had a type of "Corporate Personality Test" on their application, and asked the same "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes". Apparently this was an automatic deal-breaker; there was no f…

In a similar vein... while driving down the road, have you ever "considered" just pulling into the opposing lane? I'd never ever do that, but I've considered others driving into my lane, which leads me to consider myself doing that to their lane. Lots of other similar "I'd never do that" situations I've definitely considered. I admire your honesty though. 99% of people would lie.

L'appel du vide in one of its more commonly manifested forms.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#192

Post by Jerrrry »

werdnapk wrote: post #162
NikolaNovak wrote: post #149

When I moved to Canada, at age 16-17 I initially failed a lot of job applications at places like Staples, Future Shop, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. For some reason, many of them had a type of "Corporate Personality Test" on their application, and asked the same "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes". Apparently this was an automatic deal-breaker; there was no f…

In a similar vein... while driving down the road, have you ever "considered" just pulling into the opposing lane? I'd never ever do that, but I've considered others driving into my lane, which leads me to consider myself doing that to their lane. Lots of other similar "I'd never do that" situations I've definitely considered. I admire your honesty though. 99% of people would lie.

The call of the void is a natural instinct evolved to help judge possibly (dis)advantageous choices.

As long as you label it as an "intrusive thought," and it isn't incredibly (daily) common, that is perfectly normal.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#193

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

gpcz wrote: post #179
NikolaNovak wrote: post #149

When I moved to Canada, at age 16-17 I initially failed a lot of job applications at places like Staples, Future Shop, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. For some reason, many of them had a type of "Corporate Personality Test" on their application, and asked the same "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes". Apparently this was an automatic deal-breaker; there was no f…

Instead, the companies want people willing to lie on forms.

Indeed. If you insist on only hiring people who answer the question a certain way, don't be surprised when you hire a bunch of liars.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#194

Post by the_af »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #189
the_af wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My mind never stops and there's virtually nothing in the world I have not "considered" One piece of advice my mom gave me which I always follow is: don't tell them (a company/job/boss) anything that could be used against you. There's no need to be truthful here, this isn't a consultation with your doctor. So lie, tell them you're healthy, you never had any problems with anyone ever, never admit to anything. Truth i…

I've watched that video several times; as somebody "largely" honest, I need it to pragmatically re-adjust my perspective every few years - because I TOTALLY am the person who would inherently monologue for 3 hours when asked a simple question by a cop :) The other piece of advice is trickier, and I personally do not follow it too closely (everything in life is circumstantial:). Two aspects to mention: 1. Often, a lie…

Agreed about not outright lying. I think my mom's advice -- the way I interpret it, anyway -- is more "don't volunteer information". Sometimes you have to answer honestly if they ask you a direct question about a concrete fact they can doublecheck in alternative ways, but otherwise: don't volunteer information. Don't be a "completionist", if they ask you "have you ever considered [something naughty]" the truth is only for your therapist; for HR it's always "no, never!".

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#195

Post by pc86 »

Two points this brought up for me. One, I'd love to hear about the provocative information that would speed up clearance approval. I bet there's a story or two there.

Two, I had a similar (much less impactful) experience as a high school freshman donating blood for the first time. One of the questions on the health questionnaire was "have you ever had headaches?" I remember being confused at the wording as I checked yes because surely everyone has had a headache at some point in their life. The (astonishingly rude) person reviewing the paperwork got to that question, stared at me for a few seconds then just said "well?" After a brief back and forth she taps the question a 4-5 times. "What's this?" "I've had headaches before." She sighed and said "that's not what it means! go get in line"

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#196

Post by foobarbecue »

SpaceL10n wrote: post #170
foobarbecue wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm like you. An ex of mine claimed that most people never even think about committing suicide. It's hard for me to understand how anyone could avoid such an obvious thought, but I have since seen a lot of evidence that some people's minds really don't explore the possibility space, and when they do it's only along prescribed paths... So I guess it's possible?

I find this concept fascinating, where can I read more?

[Fox News joke removed since upon further reflection it wasn't funny]

Seriously though, I suppose I was misusing the word "evidence" here... I haven't actually studied this beyond observing and talking to people I know. I would also be interested in reading on the topic if anyone can suggest something!

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#197

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

JamesSwift wrote: post #166
technothrasher wrote: post #67

"Here, fill it out again and don't mention that." I had the exact same experience when applying for a clearance while I was in college, for the "have you taken illegal drugs" question. When I honestly answered yes, the interviewer got fidgety and then asked, "well do you take them now?" no. "Do you know any drug users?" We're on a college campus, what would you like me to say? "Well, are you friends with any of them?…

For the written form, I've always been told to be 100% truthful. During the polygraph though I've had several antagonistic interactions similar to yours. Its all part of the game though at that point. They are trying to get under your skin. My personality does not play well in that scenario. Glad to be out of that line of work now, and I generally say no to anyone asking if I'd be open to having a clearance again.

Bro, they brought the girl that talked to me on campus to confirm it was me at the polygraph.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#198

Post by toss1 »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #178
screamingninja wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think that you have been using the word "considered" rather lightly. To me, it means careful thought and deliberation, not just "the thought crossed my mind at some point".

Yes and No. I have "Considered" stealing from my employer several times. When I was 15 I was a refugee and worked in a Radio-Shack-like store in Croatia. We built PCs in back and sold them in the front. The front and back were separated by a curtain, and highest value items (ram sticks) happened to be stashed on the shelf on the side of the entrance. I realized it would take literally 5 seconds for a customer to reac…

Yup. "Considered" is certainly ambiguous enough to be a failure in the context of a job application.

When I was working at IBM, a my manager introduced me in passing to one of his peers who was getting a huge promotion, about three levels up. Why such an unusual promotion? He'd noticed a way that 4 people could conspire to exfiltrate $25 million on a Friday and be in some non-extradition country before it was noticed. He had reported this flaw, and they were promoting him for alerting them. He had certainly "considered" quite deeply stealing from his employer, and was being rewarded for doing the right thing.

And, of course, an honest answer on his BestBuy app would have disqualified him.

We can quibble about the meaning, but this is an absolute fail on the job application, unless the goal is to filter out intelligent people who have naturally curious minds.

There is a huge difference between thinking about something and taking action to do it. You have brought us another great example of utter cluelessness in corporate HR.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#199

Post by DontchaKnowit »

technothrasher wrote: post #67

"Here, fill it out again and don't mention that." I had the exact same experience when applying for a clearance while I was in college, for the "have you taken illegal drugs" question. When I honestly answered yes, the interviewer got fidgety and then asked, "well do you take them now?" no. "Do you know any drug users?" We're on a college campus, what would you like me to say? "Well, are you friends with any of them?…

I was completely honest on my form.

E.g. i admitted to drug use, but the firm was so insanely detailed there was no way to be fully honest. It literally asked how many times youve done each drug, who with, whered you get etc. Well for a raging polysubstance addict, this is hilarious. Just listing all the differe t drugs would take more room than there was on the forum and that doesnt even start to account for all the tertiary information they wanted.

I got interviewed of course. Was a very weird experience sitting in an office in my workplace 14 feet from my boss talking about "yeah I did cocain a few times" "why did you stop" "well it feels good but it makes you act brazen, selfish, and flippant. Also it sucks to be around people who are coked up"

Anyway, I got the clearance

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#200

Post by Slava_Propanei »

foobarbecue wrote: post #196
SpaceL10n wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this concept fascinating, where can I read more?

[Fox News joke removed since upon further reflection it wasn't funny] Seriously though, I suppose I was misusing the word "evidence" here... I haven't actually studied this beyond observing and talking to people I know. I would also be interested in reading on the topic if anyone can suggest something!

Ah yes, Fox News. The source of all bad thought is not the global liberal hegemony, but rather its kayfabe opposition.
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