Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

stan.bar

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 152 posts

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#121

Post by darepublic »

throwaway11823 wrote: post #26

Earlier today I sent my SO a long string of text messages about a problem that I was having, including one of them that said "I feel like garbage." I was feeling really down. They didn't respond to any of the text messages; when they got home, I asked them about it, and it seemed like they just sort of skimmed them and they didn't notice that one in particular. I didn't mention it; I just let it go. Do I "not underst…

I feel you. I am separated right now and sometimes I want desperately to be back in a relationship -- forgetting that even within a relationship it's no guarantee to not be lonely. Hope everything is okay with you. I just try to be stoical about everything and be not fight the negative emotions but learn to live with them. It helps.

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#122

Post by someone11823 »

prirun wrote: post #115
someone11823 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be made clear that this is unacceptable and needs to change, but also that you are willing to give it time and work with your SO to help them gradually improve their empathetic capacity so that they can be a better partner to you (and better person in general) and keep your relationship healthy. When I wrote my sibling comment it didn't come to mind, but this is exactly part of what I'm feeling as well -…

> are there exercises or skills to help build someones empathetic capacity? Anything I can do (perhaps without involving/telling my partner directly) to help them? Behaviors of my own that I can change to get us going in the right direction? I'm no therapist, but IMO, it is not healthy to try to help your partner change "without involving/telling them directly". It sounds like you are afraid to discuss this with them…

That's fair. They have to be a willing participant. It is just so infinitely hard to tell someone, especially someone you love and support, and who's support you so greatly want (and need), "you lack empathy", especially after telling them already several times you don't feel cared for. Maybe phrasing is part of the issue, and starting with "you lack empathy" isn't quite the right way to attack this issue and is an unnecessary attack on my partner. But, where to begin with them then?

I'll admit I wrote that comment frustrated and after not sleeping great after reading this thread.

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#123

Post by kipple »

throwaway11823 wrote: post #91
121789 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the truth is that you didn’t express yourself effectively. My SO has done something similar, and being on the other side of an emotional text barrage feels like someone is thoughtlessly unloading their issues onto you. Get a therapist and some friends for casual “therapeutic” complaining and save any real issues you have to more appropriate mediums like a call or face to face.

I wouldn't presume to understand your relationship with your SO from a vague story, and I wouldn't presume to make proscriptions to you either. I'd ask for the same grace and courtesy from you. The point was that, though the article suggests loneliness stems from being unable to describe your feelings simply and concisely, it is more complex than that.

> The point was that, though the article suggests loneliness stems from being unable to describe your feelings simply and concisely, it is more complex than that.

I think the point we're all trying to make is that a text barrage is _not_ expressing yourself simply and concisely.

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#124

Post by kipple »

RHSman2 wrote: post #102
kipple wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I sent my SO a long string of text messages about a problem that I was having, including one of them that said "I feel like garbage." Is it possible you buried the lede? I'm a fellow sender of long strings of text messages. I've found that not everyone appreciates my potentially sprawling/parallel communication style. They don't always have the time or capacity to pick through all my words and respond thoughtfully…

That is great human progress! Knowing that the way you ‘behave’ might not be the best way and not taking it personally! Meta cognition and enlightenment!

Thank you, the power of introspection and therapy!

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#125

Post by throwaway11823 »

kipple wrote: post #123
throwaway11823 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't presume to understand your relationship with your SO from a vague story, and I wouldn't presume to make proscriptions to you either. I'd ask for the same grace and courtesy from you. The point was that, though the article suggests loneliness stems from being unable to describe your feelings simply and concisely, it is more complex than that.

> The point was that, though the article suggests loneliness stems from being unable to describe your feelings simply and concisely, it is more complex than that. I think the point we're all trying to make is that a text barrage is _not_ expressing yourself simply and concisely.

"I feel like garbage" is simple and concise. This is pedantic nitpicking, so that's my final word on the subject.

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#126

Post by fleddr »

throwaway11823 wrote: post #119
fleddr wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The female part of the patriarchy (a word I hate) is not to be underestimated. The idea that men should be more in touch with their emotions is nothing but a narrative, reality is exactly opposite to it. Women do not select for emotional men. They select for status, wealth, attractiveness. Only when those qualities are met FIRST, perhaps you may also share some feelings here and there, but do keep that shit in check.…

Friend, I tell you truthfully that you are buying into a conspiracy theory, propagated by people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate, which is not a true reflection of reality. Men shouldn't be in touch with their emotions to attract women - they should be in touch with their emotions for their own well being. The idea you're expressing is called hypergamy, and it's more of a caricature of human courtship than anyth…

No, I'm not an incel, as that it was you seem to imply. I'm happily in a relationship for 15 years. I'm not on board with characters like Tate and Jordanson, they opportunistically exploit a symptom: a total lack of care or interest in men's wellbeing.

"Men shouldn't be in touch with their emotions to attract women - they should be in touch with their emotions for their own well being."

And the point of this discussion, what started it, is that they can't. Those feelings are ignored, dismissed and ridiculed.

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#127

Post by fleddr »

throwaway11823 wrote: post #120
fleddr wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Only women, children and dogs are loved unconditionally" - Chris Rock. It's not as transactional as to be loveless. It's conditional love.

I'd like to push back on this. I feel my friends & SO love me essentially unconditionally, but are simply ill-equipped to express that in a supportive way.

I think that this is technically true in most cases, but love isn't technical.

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#128

Post by throwaway11823 »

fleddr wrote: post #126
throwaway11823 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Friend, I tell you truthfully that you are buying into a conspiracy theory, propagated by people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate, which is not a true reflection of reality. Men shouldn't be in touch with their emotions to attract women - they should be in touch with their emotions for their own well being. The idea you're expressing is called hypergamy, and it's more of a caricature of human courtship than anyth…

No, I'm not an incel, as that it was you seem to imply. I'm happily in a relationship for 15 years. I'm not on board with characters like Tate and Jordanson, they opportunistically exploit a symptom: a total lack of care or interest in men's wellbeing. "Men shouldn't be in touch with their emotions to attract women - they should be in touch with their emotions for their own well being." And the point of this discussi…

I'm glad to hear you aren't an incel, and you have my sincere congratulations on 15 years of marriage, that's wonderful. I 100% agree with you about Tate & Peterson.

I think it would be worth considering that the ideas you were describing are axiomatic in incel ideology. If you dug through some Andrew Tate videos, you wouldn't have any trouble finding him make the same case as you've made. The crossroads here is, once one observes these critiques of masculinity - do you accept them fatalistically, attributing them to some indelible aspect of biology (this is the Peterson route), or do you seek to change it? Do you place the blame on women (the incel route), or do you observe that there is a power structure (the patriarchy) that is simultaneously oppressing and privileging both men and women in different ways, so that they both enforce the rules of the patriarchy on one another?

There is a problem here, absolutely, we're on the same page there. But it doesn't stem from biology, it is a set of social constructs and expectations; artifices created by humans and which can be abolished by humans, no more immutable than the concept of the divine right of kings.

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#129

Post by Viliam1234 »

throwaway11823 wrote: post #34
Fauntleroy wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might need to surround yourself with more compassionate people, if you truly feel that no one is willing to consider your emotional wants and needs.

They are lovely and compassionate people, they're simply unable to extend that to me, partly because they're blinded by societal expectations of men (they often don't really see me as an emotional creature), partly because they lean on me for support, and so the idea that I might not be an unshakable pillar is terrifying for them. When I go to them for support, it's not that they don't want to provide it, it's that t…

> They are lovely and compassionate people, they're simply unable to extend that to me

Imagine that I told you about a group of people who, for example, "are lovely and compassionate, they are simply unable to extend that to black people". Would you agree with those adjectives?

> It's bearable. Therapists exist for a reason.

Maybe the things that are "bearable, but require a therapy afterwards" should be improved.

Re: Loneliness is a measure of self-understanding

#130

Post by Viliam1234 »

dusted wrote: post #114

Is there even any suggestion that people are capable of self-understanding? I've heard some people claim that they know themselves, but I don't believe they do, at least their own description of themselves seem vastly different from how I'd describe them (not that I claim to know them very well either). I kind of attribute the claim of self-knowing to a lack of reflection on the topic, and maybe mistaking ones values…

> Is there even any suggestion that people are capable of self-understanding?

We certainly can improve at that, even if we never become perfect. Here is what I use to understand myself better:

* Reflecting on my past behavior. No matter how much I may hate to admit it, if in situation X I repeatedly did Y, it is fair to describe me as a person who "in situation X does Y". This is probably too humiliating for most people to do properly.

* Related: noticing long-term trends in my thoughts and behavior. What I feel today may be strongly influenced by what happened to me recently; tomorrow I can feel differently. But if I feel the same way or do the same things as I did 20 years ago, that probably means something important about me.

* Comparing my past behavior to other people's observed behavior. This is important, because many traits are relative to the population. Like, if you were the only person alive, you couldn't really classify yourself as "tall" or "short", even if you knew your height precisely to a millimeter; it is the comparison of your height to other people's heights that makes you "tall" or "short". By reflecting on my past behavior, I know what I am, but by comparing it to other people, I know what I am in the context of the society I live in. The context is important, if I want to communicate who I am to other people.

Post reply on HN