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Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

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Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#161
post #18

I like the advice here: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-softwar... (didn't write it, but it jives with my experience). I also wrote something here on how to stand out: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2022/09/19/ways-to-stand-... Finally, you ask: > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for? That depends on your financial situation and emotional runway,…

I was recently asked "Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for?" by a laid off Visa holder. This is even more straightforward. Yes it is. I know many who are being hit by layoffs. The situation sucks. I don't think there's any advantage to downplaying this right now whether in your own mind or through advice to others. There's a huge number of tech workers laid off simultaneo…

That would obviously depend on how much you want to maintain your visa.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#162

Maybe unpopular advice, but I do find that companies over-index on your current role. (FWIW I have hired lots of new and experienced PhDs in ML but am not hiring now.) So if you take a "placeholder" job, I suggest trying to find one that sounds at least as prestigious as your current position. So, changing your resume from "Fresh MIT PhD grad on the market" to "Researcher in boring lab of dying old industrial company…

Fresh MIT grad has a lot of options; the name and alumni orgs alone will open doors.

OP is, nearest I can tell, getting a BS from Big State U, and that's a wayyyyy harder game than someone with a Ph.D and pedigree.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#163
The tech industry is still hiring, it's just FAANG that are contracting because they were the ones who had the money to massively overhire during the pandemic. Everyone else is still trying to get good hires. So, get a job that helps you and then start looking for the next job once you are building your basic skills.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#164

I've been through the dotcom slaughter of 2000-2002 as a new grad (undergrad) and the comparatively small slowdown of 2008 (grad school new grad). Get ready to hit the Submit button... a lot. The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. My application:interview:offer ratio has always varied from 50:5:1 to 100:10:1, and I would expect something like that or w…

Came here to say the same thing, I graduated in '99 with an ECE degree when movies like Fight Club and The Matrix came out and the future was so bright we had to wear shades, right into the Dot Bomb of 2000/2001. People might have forgotten or be to young today to remember that most tech innovation stopped from then until around 2007 when the iPhone came out. Facebook was around 2004-5 ish but the PHP ecosystem it was built on was anemic until Lumen/Laravel took off after 2011. It's hard to get a job as an engineer when all companies were thinking about was outsourcing.

Those years created such trauma for me and set me back so far financially that I didn't recover or pay off my student loans (meaning I had no disposable income whatsoever) until I was 40. I can say with confidence that those experiences all but ruined my career, and many others in Gen X. We didn't get promoted, or trusted to manage others, or even have children. It's like we never existed, especially the tail end, the "Elder" Millennials like me. All we hear about now is the success of billionaires - the Tony Starks of the world, but I'm with the losers - I'm Ivan Vanko.

Thankfully the situation today is nothing like the Dot Bomb or the Housing Bubble collapsing in 2008. Nobody can find employees right now. And with the arrival of AI, even the most prescient geeks have absolutely no idea what's going to happen in the next decade. The years effectively go 1999,2000...2023 with 2 lost decades in between. The only innovation has been in GPUs, Moore's law effectively halted in 2007 when R&D started going to reducing cost and power consumption. That may change with RISC-V and the open sourcing/democratization of hardware. So for the first time in a _very_ long time, I'm actually cautiously optimistic about the future.

To get to the point: I'd recommend rejecting most job hunting advice. Stop thinking about what you need to do, or what others expect you to do. Remember that being alive and kicking is what matters. You can survive on next to nothing. The world doesn't come to an end just because you lose your job or run out of money.

Instead, picture a business owner's goals. They just want you to solve their problem, and hopefully be able to pay you. So start with the fundamentals: shows like Mad Men. Learn how to listen and communicate. Don't assume that the person you're talking with has any more of a clue than you do. They may be interviewing 100 people because none of them emphasize how much they are there for their employer. If you're solid, and dedicated, and show up, that can do more for your career than credentials. Just be on the level, is what I'm saying.

One pitfall to watch for is settling. I made the mistake of moving furniture for the first 3 years out of school to support my struggling shareware business. I came out of that job a different person than when I went in. It built my intestinal fortitude but destroyed my psyche. But I've fallen back on it when I needed money. Donating plasma works too. And stuff like Bacon is the Uber of handyman work. It's important to know you can do that stuff to subsist, so that you aren't desperate when you go to an interview. It's all dating, basically.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. Yikes. I have been in Software Engineering for about 11 years and never had it any other way and even then interviewing and managing applications was stressful. Having to apply to 10s, 100s of companies would destroy me. I am very, very scared of my company going under and me having to compete in this market. I…

Connections, connections, connections. Reach out to every friend, old coworker, etc. especially those that are in management now. Catch up and get a pulse for how their company situation is right now--if they're weathering the downturn well, going through layoffs, etc. If you do get laid off you can reach out to these folks immediately and get recommendations or even just feedback on your resume. The sooner you start…

“Reach out to every friend, old coworker, etc. especially those that are in management now.”

This advice always cracks me up.

Most people don’t have deep networks of people who can hook them up with a senior level engineering position. Like, even the people I know who are quite well connected don’t really have this option.

Sure, everyone has a buddy who’d love to pay them half for twice the work. But we’re talking relatable fields and jobs that are worth it and that’s just not realistic for majority.

Alternatively, if people had social networks with people who have potentials roles for them, who wouldn’t already think in the social media era “oh yeah, i’ll ask the people I know who have an in instead of going to random strangers”

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#166

As a new grad I don’t think you need to do much different. At my Megacorp the college hire budget is separate from everything else. Even during the strictest hiring freeze college hiring continued. I would advise shifting expectations a bit, it’s likely offers will still be good but not quite as lucrative as last year. As for accepting any job- just because you’ve accepted a job does not mean you can’t keep interview…

> Of the 20 people we had, 3 had new jobs within 3 months of hire. I am coming up on month 3 of my new job and not liking the team and leadership. I can tell it will only get worse. I really want to leave and luckily have the opportunity to close the loop on all my current projects. Should I just make it quick and send an email to manager tomorrow that I feel it's not a good fit and Friday is my last day? Make it qui…

Do not quit your job without at least a written offer. It is 100% an issue for resume reviewers, hiring managers and interviewers. I have seen plenty of candidates passed over for exactly this reason.

My brother quit his (admittedly bad) job in February of 2020. He didn’t find work beyond Amazon warehouse temp till 2021. He blew through a ton of savings and is still recovering. While don’t believe and sincerely hope we are looking at anything like 2020 again, it is impossible to know and it’s way better to pay it safe.

Your job search will be easier while still employed and less stressful.

Don’t worry about getting assigned more assignments. You can leave those behind when you take a new job. Seriously, after a few years you’ll have seen plenty of people come and go, sometimes suddenly. Organizations will find a way to fill the gap (or try aren’t a very good organization).

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#167
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this advice is highly dependent on career goals. What sort of work is interesting to you, and why? Going to grad school is only a good idea if there's something specific you're trying to learn. It's a means not an ends. For someone who doesn't have real life work experience in their field, I don't think it's the best idea. I think working in the industry for a few years (at least) and seeing the types of jobs…

You're ignoring the context of the post. This is advice for what a new grad should do right now in this particular economy. You're right that grad school is more effective after working a few years, but its still a better option that starvation if you can get into grad school with a stipend. And if you throw away the resumes of someone who went straight to grad school, you're just missing out on a lot of good candida…

> You're ignoring the context of the post.

No, I'm not. Getting out and working is the best thing you can do in a down economy, even if it's a crappy job, or not as much money as you'd like.

> And if you throw away the resumes of someone who went straight to grad school, you're just missing out on a lot of good candidates.

Where did I say I throw out resumes? It's a red flag. Those can be overcome in interviews or with other mitigating factors, but pretending like this isn't an issue doesn't help anyone.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had it happen once. I'm still shocked to this day it happened. The whole experience was surreal. They paid me 6 figures, offered the job out of the blue basically on linked in, I started like a week later and then I was assigned basically nothing. I did basically nothing for a 3 month contract and then left. Without pursuing the job, without barely doing anything, and then left without any real comment. And we'r…

That is a fascinating story; thanks for sharing. I can only imagine the ever-increasing disbelief as you went along with this.

I spent 2 months working for a big insurance company via a big 4 consultancy and 3 other devs + me were literally sleeping with our heads on the conference room tabe they gave to us, 8 hours a day.

It scarred us forever.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#169

I graduated in 09. * It's easier to get a job if you already have a job. It's okay to take a shitty job as long as you don't get complacent about it. * Gaps get stressed by job seekers in advice requests because it is a question that can make you look bad. However, if you are actually at an interview, they are fishing for bad dealbreakers not minor imperfections. Don't worry to much about it. * If you get hired via a…

I entered the job market in '08 and agree overall, but I will add a few caveats from my personal experience:

> If you get hired via a staffing agency, you could be cut at any time arbitrarily. I once got laid off 24 hours after signing a contract renewal. Keep as good an emergency fund as you can manage.

Assuming you are a useful employee, being a temp or a contractor can save you from being laid off because you are paid less, don't have the same benefits package, and are usually paid from a separate, more liquid general fund. If you believe in the power of personal anecdote, this saved my job once.

> Cold applications are just a numbers game. Managers get 1000 applications for 1 seat. Yes, tune your resume/letter for the job, but don't spend too much time on it.

I don't think this advice applies to everyone. If you apply for jobs that are a good match for your skills, or you are simply exceptional, your base success rate will be higher in the first place, and you will get more ROI from a tuned resume and a serious cover letter. Just be mindful of where you are putting your effort, and don't be afraid to change up your strategy if it's not working.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#170
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great recession grad. 1000:100:10:1 app:phone_screen:interview:offer In general divide the first number by 10 if you have at least 12 months post grad professional experience. If you have a shiny high GPA diploma from a top school but no intern or any experience whatsoever change last two numbers to zero.

At the end of the great recession for me. 250:3:1:1 The biggest thing that helped me was having some Android apps. Another was that I had some COBOL knowledge. I also lowballed my salary request, which might have helped me get the job , but I'm still paying for that today.

yep this was my ratio as well
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