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Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

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Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#91

Post by hef19898 »

roughly wrote: post #78
eptcyka wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say, having experiences at bad workplaces can still be valuable. This isn't to say one should seek out toxic colleagues and horrible working conditions, but knowing what you do not want is valuable too. And having bad workplaces early on is cheaper than having bad workplaces later in life. All in all, I'm trying to emphasize that a job in the field you want will almost always be beneficial when you're starting ou…

Broadly I agree with this, with the caveat that, especially as a junior developer/new grad, it can be both really difficult to spot that a workspace is toxic and really damaging to work in one over time. As far into my career as I am at this point, I've both a finely honed radar and zero tolerance for toxic bullshit, but as a new developer, it's a whole lot harder to have both the self-confidence and self-awareness t…

Being a junior without prior experience at a shitty company is a enormous risk. Being a senior means you can judge the shittyness, as junior this first experience will influence you for a good part of your future career, be it for the better or worse.

My advice, look for some decent, experienced people in any job you have, but even more so in your first. Build a trustfull relationship with at least one of those folks and get as much advice, mentoring and context out of them as possible.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#92

Post by ryandrake »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #79
ryandrake wrote: post #22

I've been through the dotcom slaughter of 2000-2002 as a new grad (undergrad) and the comparatively small slowdown of 2008 (grad school new grad). Get ready to hit the Submit button... a lot. The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. My application:interview:offer ratio has always varied from 50:5:1 to 100:10:1, and I would expect something like that or w…

I'm... that's a crazy ratio. Mine sits around that 5:4:3 ratio. I've rarely even had to apply for a position -- usually just got headhunted. I started about 13 years ago, and even my first job at a big tech company (LinkedIn), I was scouted. I don't even have a CS degree. I'm curious what your discipline is in?

Congratulations on your lucky career timing! Like many in HN's demographic, if you started 13 years ago (2010) or less, then you've so far never had to work in a bear market. Actually your timing is astonishing, entering the industry right after the last downturn. Well done :)

In an extended bear market / downturn, throw that ratio out the window. Unless you're literally John Carmack or Ken Thompson, you're not going to just have headhunters begging you to work at their companies. In fact, even fishing expeditions from recruiters are going to quickly die out. You'll have to apply--a lot! You'll have to struggle to stay on your recruiters' radars. You'll have to follow-up, pinging for updates, "let me know how I can help move this forward" and so on. Things aren't just going to fall into your lap. This will be the case until we flip back to a bull market and hiring returns to "normal."

BTW my discipline is embedded / mobile development and then project management. Not that I think it matters--macroeconomic effects tend to hit uniformly across engineering disciplines.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#93

Post by hef19898 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #59
mooreds wrote: post #18

I like the advice here: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-softwar... (didn't write it, but it jives with my experience). I also wrote something here on how to stand out: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2022/09/19/ways-to-stand-... Finally, you ask: > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for? That depends on your financial situation and emotional runway,…

That is excellent advice, and not one single hint of jargon! Practicality, in my experience, has always been of tremendous importance. Also, for me, I tended to take low-paying jobs, if the technology/company interested me, because I wanted to learn. Learning is difficult; especially learning to ship. Feasts of Humble Pie, Egg-On-Face, and Crow, with side orders of stress and overwork. A surprising number of folks do…

Learning to ship and get shit done is the most valuable lesson, or one of the most valuable ones, to learn in your first full time job. If you cannot learn that, look for a job where you can before in years you are a senior, but in real experience still junior.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#94

Post by difflens »

My recommendation would be to apply to as many positions as you can, but steel yourself to the fact that you may not hear back from any of them. I'd also recommend exploring if you can push graduation back by a year (assuming funding would cover it and you have legit research to do), or if you can pick up part time lecturer, post doc etc type of positions for the next year. IMO, job prospects for software engineers will likely start improving in the last quarter of 2023 and be much better in 2024. So I'd plan to tough it out till then.

I do empathize with your position and wish you luck :) I'm ever grateful to the first manager who hired me. He changed my life forever and that of my family.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#95

Post by msrenee »

roughly wrote: post #78
eptcyka wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say, having experiences at bad workplaces can still be valuable. This isn't to say one should seek out toxic colleagues and horrible working conditions, but knowing what you do not want is valuable too. And having bad workplaces early on is cheaper than having bad workplaces later in life. All in all, I'm trying to emphasize that a job in the field you want will almost always be beneficial when you're starting ou…

Broadly I agree with this, with the caveat that, especially as a junior developer/new grad, it can be both really difficult to spot that a workspace is toxic and really damaging to work in one over time. As far into my career as I am at this point, I've both a finely honed radar and zero tolerance for toxic bullshit, but as a new developer, it's a whole lot harder to have both the self-confidence and self-awareness t…

Yep. Wouldn't trade the self-confidence and lack of tolerance for BS I developed from working for a psycho for much. I just wish it hadn't taken therapy and antidepressants to get back to a place where I could be comfortable in myself and my abilities again.

I could be getting paid more, but my current workplace has only a couple completely worthless human beings. The supervisor knows who they are and what they're like and steps right in if there's a conflict. That's worth at least an extra $20k/year in my book. For my part, I try to advocate for less-established coworkers who are getting hit with the same crap I did from those individuals. Keeps the couple jerks from running off potential talent who will make my job more pleasant in the long run.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#96

Post by skipants »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #33
ryandrake wrote: post #22

I've been through the dotcom slaughter of 2000-2002 as a new grad (undergrad) and the comparatively small slowdown of 2008 (grad school new grad). Get ready to hit the Submit button... a lot. The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. My application:interview:offer ratio has always varied from 50:5:1 to 100:10:1, and I would expect something like that or w…

> The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. Yikes. I have been in Software Engineering for about 11 years and never had it any other way and even then interviewing and managing applications was stressful. Having to apply to 10s, 100s of companies would destroy me. I am very, very scared of my company going under and me having to compete in this market. I…

You're not alone. Our experiences are similar. I'm not sure if that's comforting or not.

The one saving grace for me is I do have enough savings to get me through a depression. I know that's not a luxury for everyone, though.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#97

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

notch656c wrote: post #77
ryandrake wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there’s no comparison to the ease of being a senior and having job offers flood in to your LinkedIn on a weekly basis. Splitting hairs a little here, but I've got > 25 years of experience and have not once, ever, received a job offer through LinkedIn, let alone weekly. I've had recruiters showing varying levels of interest contact me there, but never "Hi, person I've never met, great resume! Here is your job offer…

I've had it happen once. I'm still shocked to this day it happened. The whole experience was surreal. They paid me 6 figures, offered the job out of the blue basically on linked in, I started like a week later and then I was assigned basically nothing. I did basically nothing for a 3 month contract and then left. Without pursuing the job, without barely doing anything, and then left without any real comment. And we'r…

That is a fascinating story; thanks for sharing. I can only imagine the ever-increasing disbelief as you went along with this.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#98

Post by steve76 »

mooreds wrote: post #18

I like the advice here: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-softwar... (didn't write it, but it jives with my experience). I also wrote something here on how to stand out: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2022/09/19/ways-to-stand-... Finally, you ask: > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for? That depends on your financial situation and emotional runway,…

[dead]

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#99

Post by hef19898 »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #33
ryandrake wrote: post #22

I've been through the dotcom slaughter of 2000-2002 as a new grad (undergrad) and the comparatively small slowdown of 2008 (grad school new grad). Get ready to hit the Submit button... a lot. The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. My application:interview:offer ratio has always varied from 50:5:1 to 100:10:1, and I would expect something like that or w…

> The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. Yikes. I have been in Software Engineering for about 11 years and never had it any other way and even then interviewing and managing applications was stressful. Having to apply to 10s, 100s of companies would destroy me. I am very, very scared of my company going under and me having to compete in this market. I…

I'm not im software, but I graduated in 2007. During my studies, Germany was still kind of Europe's sick man. Upon graduation, I hit lucky timing, and everyone who graduated around the same time knew it. Then came 2008. And since 2013/14, well, it was all roses. There is a whole generation out there thay has no idea what economic down turns feel and look like, and they might be in for a very rude awakening.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#100

Post by lowbloodsugar »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #88
mooreds wrote: post #18

I like the advice here: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-softwar... (didn't write it, but it jives with my experience). I also wrote something here on how to stand out: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2022/09/19/ways-to-stand-... Finally, you ask: > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for? That depends on your financial situation and emotional runway,…

I was recently asked "Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for?" by a laid off Visa holder. This is even more straightforward. Yes it is. I know many who are being hit by layoffs. The situation sucks. I don't think there's any advantage to downplaying this right now whether in your own mind or through advice to others. There's a huge number of tech workers laid off simultaneo…

At this point there is no way any software company could justify, legally, hiring someone on an H1B. There are some 40k layoffs in last few months and certainly a large number of those are US citizens. Any company claiming that they can’t find a US citizen with the right skills is lying.
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