[flagged]
> Whenever my more liberal friends back in San Francisco talk about Palestine and the "Evil West"
Those inalienable rights are for Americans and Israelis, not Palestinians.
Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
41–50 of 115 posts
Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like to suck dick. If I get caught sucking dick in a Muslim country, I die. If I suck dick in the west, maybe I get my own dick sucked in return. Tell me again about the freedom of the islamic world.
Because the locals don't want to, and you know it. Ask anybody in the streets about their opinions of gays, and you shall get your answer. It may be fundamental freedom for you, but for them its an outrageous act that deserves punishment. Don't like it, don't stay there, simple.
Meanwhile, Turkish men are the most metrosexual in the world, and let's just say it 's easier to get laid in Taksim than it is in the Castro. I feel that Istanbul is actually a far gayer city than San Francisco, but everybody stays in the closet in order to survive.
You have a funny concept of free.
If I am not free to be exactly who I am, then I am not free.
If I am forced to follow a religion under penalty of death, I am not free.
If I am forced to not leave that religion under penalty of death, I am not free.
If I am forced to be straight, I am not free.
A free nation allows everybody to be free, not just the mainstream.
Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
> His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. I don’t think that’s a charitable or logical framing of his point of view. Unless you’re religious—which the American framers were—“inalienable rights” are an illogical concept. In the state…
You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.
> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia?
The Black Death increased labour’s bargaining power right before the Industrial Revolution. It’s a lucky set of quirks that gave Enlightenment-era ideas fertile soil to land on.
Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s hilarious watching all the posters tell OP he’s mistaken about a life experience he had. Hubris abound.
> It’s hilarious watching all the posters tell OP he’s mistaken about a life experience he had. This is a pretty bullshit reading of the comment you replied to, which was about the nature of "rights" as a social agreement rather than something natural.
To add to your comment, nobody says OP’s experience is incorrect. Instead, the comment thinking4real takes reflexive offence to seeks to explain it, not demean it.
Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Just one? Honest question, how does Jordan fare in democracy?
You should ask the king that question.
From my limited experuence, Jordan seems to be the closest example of a democrcy in the Arab world I know. Sure, it is by no means democratic when compared to Western democracies. But they do not use totalitarian and draconian measures to surpress the population on a regular basis. Nor is Jordan an outright relogiously motivated chauvinist regime. And compared to other, more democratic nations like Tunesia or Marocco, Jordan is extremely stable. Which is a value in itself.
But this is just my impression as an outsider.
Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
It sounds like you're generalizing from a couple of conversations. The Arab Spring of 2010-2012 started because citizens in the Arab world wanted more freedoms. The idea that citizens in Tunisia, Egypt, or Syria are "intellectually incapable of understanding" the idea of freedom of speech is insulting.
>The Arab Spring of 2010-2012 started because citizens in the Arab world wanted more freedoms. I'm not sure they were. They kicked off when food prices spiked, and proximate causes were corruption and unemployment. Officially endorsed foreign protests against government we don't particularly like are always described as being about freedom in the west for reasons that aren't always good. >The idea that citizens in Tu…
As an Egyptian who took part of the arab spring, I really laughed on your argument (sorry no insult). But as simple as argument it is, It doesn't hold because you see the Egyptian currency is no almost 6x less with 10x or more on average for food prices and there is no movement to overthrow the current regime.
And for corruption and unemployment, they are much worse now than before. Then more than half the country are under poverty line, most of middle class became lower class in a couple of years.
There were no particular reason why the uprising happened, of course some people joined because of that. But this wasn't my reason (or majority of people I know).
Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
> His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. I don’t think that’s a charitable or logical framing of his point of view. Unless you’re religious—which the American framers were—“inalienable rights” are an illogical concept. In the state…
You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.
Certainly a respect for the individual played a role. Thomas Hobbes argued for a strong monarch specifically to protect their subjects and their subjects’ property. Other philosophers like John Lock, David Hume, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill would expand on this and build the classically liberal tradition.
But we also can’t underestimate the impact of: 1) abundant energy sources—initially wood and then coal that could power machinery. 2) a scientific tradition with engineering applications in mind. 3) the Black Plague that let people just drop their scythes and move to the city to become tradesmen and earn a better living. 4) the Common Law tradition placing property rights and the right to contract on near-sacred grounds. 5) Access to abundant fishing off the coast of what became North America.
I don't think there's any one thing we can point to explain the rise of West, it's a confluence of factors that I'm very grateful happened before I was born
Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indonesia is not an Islamic nation even though a majority of its population is Islamic and there is some influence of Islam in their politics. Malaysia is, as you stated, an Islamic nation. It is not secular, however, as they consider Islam to be their official religion.
By this logic such a nation does not exist, as you can’t be both Islamic and secular at the same time. You can say the same about Turkey as Indonesia, it’s a secular nation even though the majority of its population is Muslim. I think the OP comment meant to ask about a secular democracy in a country where most people are Muslim. And in that case Turkey could be an example, even though Erdogan is fairly dictator-ish,…
> you can’t be both Islamic and secular at the same time
Yes. There is a difference between an Islamic nation and a nation of Muslims.
Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like to suck dick. If I get caught sucking dick in a Muslim country, I die. If I suck dick in the west, maybe I get my own dick sucked in return. Tell me again about the freedom of the islamic world.
Try being a bisexual occultist anywhere Islam entrenched itself in government. I might as well commit suicide if I have to go there. If they find out, I would be stoned probably immediately. Or, I've got a collection of pictures of what they do using knives - "Et tu Brute" style. I would consider going to a Sufi controlled area. At least they have some semblance of sense.
Sufis are still fairly right-wing, except maybe the hippy westerners who go spin themselves doing the semih in the unofficial mevlevi lodges in Yelova or Konya. I've done the one in Konya actually, it's a great musical experience.
Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like to suck dick. If I get caught sucking dick in a Muslim country, I die. If I suck dick in the west, maybe I get my own dick sucked in return. Tell me again about the freedom of the islamic world.
Is this a joke, or do you not know that Lawrence v. Texas is from 2003? I've got jeans older than the inalienable right to suck dick in the US.
Please, citation needed about the last time a western government stoned, beheaded, or hung to death a gay man for sucking dick?