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Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

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Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#101

Post by rscho »

fidgewidge wrote: post #82
roenxi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have very mixed feelings about this policy. I don't want my government taking my money in taxes, then deploying it as welfare conditional on unrelated policies. Particularly because once the have this leverage they'll make more widespread use of it. Some (all, in fact) of the anti-vaxxers I know are extremely upstanding small businesspeople. I can imagine in the next pandemic that (1) the government will tax them h…

[flagged]

You can't delete public health and expect unchanged levels of care individually. Health at the individual level very much depends on public health policies.

Don't believe me? Have fun watching your newborn die from whooping cough!

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#102

Post by realjhol »

ben_w wrote: post #68
realjhol wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually yes, sometimes an outsider opinion can be the correct one... that is the very essence of scientific enquiry - to ask questions. Who am I? Some rando on the Internet, but I correctly assessed that the vaccines wouldn't prevent transmission, carried a non-zero risk of side effects - sometimes extremely serious, that natural immunity would provide far greater protection, that vaccination was unnecessary for chi…

> We have been proven correct about every single one of these things No, you haven't. > natural immunity would provide far greater protection false > vaccines wouldn't prevent transmission, carried a non-zero risk of side effects "Prevent" and "non-zero" are weasel words, that sentence as written is true of literally every treatment and prophylactic in existence forever . But it does reduce the risk of transmission e…

>> natural immunity would provide far greater protection

> false

True: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2203965

> vaccines wouldn't prevent transmission,

The vaccines were never tested to prevent transmission: https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2022/10/12/pfizer-vaccine-not-tes...

-- and indeed they do not prevent transmission, or infection for that matter. Many many people, from Joe Biden to my own mother have been injected and boosted 5-times over, and still got a COVID infection. The vaccines simply don't work very well.

> And the risks of side effects are much, much lower than the risks of those effects from the actual illness.

You can't make a blanket statement about risk, especially when so little was know about the risk of side effects across the population.

For people like us, and the large number of people who have had COVID, we know what the risk of a COVID infection is, and in our case - as with most other people who are in good health, and not extremely elderly, it's a very mild condition.

On the other hand, health officials continue to deliberately downplay the significance of side effects, which we now know includes non-negligable risk of life threatening heart dissease and Bell's Palsey.

> Lockdowns were there to reduce the secondary consequences from running out of capacity.

That was the claim, certainly. But as we predicted, this never actually happened anywhere in the world - not even in places where people live in poverty, and healthcare is virtually non-existant.

> Several places ran out of capacity to handle the dead, let alone the living. I still don't understand how we were able to get short of medical oxygen, but that happened in some places too.

A lot of that stuff turneded out to be fabricated, but it spooked a lot of folks.

Sweden never locked down, and their outcomes were better than most of the rest of Europe:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...

> Masks likewise, reduce the transmission rate. Not eliminate, reduce. That's not pointless.

They don't though. Scarecly anyone wore the kind of mask that could possibly make any difference. It was security theatre to calm the masses. All a cloth mask does is redirect your breathe out the sides. It doesn't filter anything.

> Sure, lots of kids and young adults won't die, they'll only get sick for a few weeks, with unknown long term damage.

My kids have never had any COVID symptoms at all since we were first infected March 2020. So in our case (and millions like us), it's actually not unknown. I wouldn't even know if they had had the disease a dozen times over already - I hope they have, because it help further fortify their natural immunity.

Over and over the claims of the expert class have been proven wrong. They claimed to know things that they couldn't possibly have known, and continue to lie and deflect to this day.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#103

Post by Avamander »

newsclues wrote: post #90
Avamander wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A broken clock is right twice a day, some of these "predictions" are a coin toss to get right. This doesn't ever make the rest of those talking points more valid.

Some of the critics are biologists who have been right more than the “experts” on TV. So your comment applies to the establishment voices who straight up lied to the public and some people like yourself seemed to believe the liars. Lol!

You have literally named no names, no predictions, no topic even, there's no substance at all. Yet somehow you have acquired the impression that my comment applies to the group you disagree with, wow.

You are reading too much into things just to confirm your viewpoints you have barely grazed.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#104

Post by usea »

lolinder wrote: post #35
knaik94 wrote: post #20

I am not sure what the best way to communicate with these kinds of parents is. This is a parent with a very specific kind of mindset about who should be the ultimate authority on their child. More often than not, it becomes unhealthy for the child living in this environment both physically and emotionally. Everyone understands the parents ultimately mean no harm, but their warped perception of science, among other th…

> This is a parent with a very specific kind of mindset about who should be the ultimate authority on their child. I think this may be your problem: you don't perceive the parent as the ultimate authority on the child. As a tutor, you fill a strictly advisory role, not a position of authority, and even your advisory role is limited in scope. If you try to exert authority or influence outside of that scope then yes, y…

Either parents should be allowed to kill their children on a whim without consequence, or parents are not the ultimate authority over their children. They are mutually exclusive beliefs.

Children aren't property. They're human beings that deserve the protection of the state. Sometimes that means protection FROM their parents.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#105

Post by blumomo »

fidgewidge wrote: post #82
roenxi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have very mixed feelings about this policy. I don't want my government taking my money in taxes, then deploying it as welfare conditional on unrelated policies. Particularly because once the have this leverage they'll make more widespread use of it. Some (all, in fact) of the anti-vaxxers I know are extremely upstanding small businesspeople. I can imagine in the next pandemic that (1) the government will tax them h…

[flagged]

Well elaborated! Thank you.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#106

Post by fidgewidge »

rscho wrote: post #101
fidgewidge wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You can't delete public health and expect unchanged levels of care individually. Health at the individual level very much depends on public health policies. Don't believe me? Have fun watching your newborn die from whooping cough!

Yes, it would have effects on people's health but those effects would be both positive and negative. They'd both have to be summed together, but even then, health isn't everything. A healthy society run by totalitarians is still a deeply unpleasant society to live in.

Whooping cough vaccines and vaccines in general would still exist without public health. The difference is that it would be an individual decision to buy them, based on whether they believe it helps themselves and others, or not. It wouldn't be a government decision.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#107

Post by danenania »

knaik94 wrote: post #84
pclmulqdq wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in your capacity as a tutor, do you think you are qualified to make medical diagnoses of and medical decisions for other people's children? It's generally thought that this is the parents' decision because they have the most information about the child and the biggest "stake" in their child's success. Has it occurred to you that you might be working with incomplete information? Has it occurred to you that your con…

I have a diagnosis. Their teachers suspected a diagnosis and the child was tested. The child would benefit from treatment. The parents were asking for my opinion. As a tutor, I would be one of the first people that would know if a student is struggling and needs testing for a learning disorder. These situations I am talking about are specifically when the parent is clearly choosing to disregard information because th…

Fyi, speaking as a parent: as it relates to ADHD and giving young children powerful psychoactive drugs, the fact that you only seem aware of one side of an extremely complex and contentious issue makes me disinterested in your advice on this or any other parenting topic. The kinds of people I look to for advice understand the arguments on both sides and, while they may have a position one way or the other, are not zealots.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#108

Post by watwut »

nnx wrote: post #31

This is really sad as it will probably cause unnecessary children deaths down the road. I think public health authorities have serious soul-searching to do, this outcome was clearly warned upon by a lot of doctors and paediatricians who seen first hand parents not understanding why those authorities were pushing so hard novel mrna covid-19 vaccines on healthy children that were basically not at risk from this disease…

No, it is fault of those who push against vaccines super hard for political reasons.

It is absurd to blame anyone else at the point where we are. There are groups who are intentionally trying to convince people to not vaccinate.

When people listen to them, it is theor fault.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#109

Post by mrphoebs »

ben_w wrote: post #100
mrphoebs wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with the points you are making and think they are important, they could have been made just as effectively without resorting to an Ad hominem format. Though the quality of civil discourse on HN has degraded over the years, HN is still the one of the places I expect to live upto a higher standard. (I'm sorry to any readers that this comment is not adding anything materially useful to the wider discussion…

Noted. I'm not sure how to make the same points without saying that some of the statements were weasel words, but if you could suggest a different way to make the same points, I'd appreciate it. (Apart from anything else, I know that raising the other party's heart rate is a terrible way to change their minds).

I think you were half way there taking charitable view on one of the arguments, I think taking a charitable view on the commenter's perspective/intent would have gotten you all the way.

With that adjustment, I think you can go from "weasel words" to "Your perspective might be flawed..."

Apologies, if this comes off as patronising.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#110

Post by pclmulqdq »

knaik94 wrote: post #84
pclmulqdq wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in your capacity as a tutor, do you think you are qualified to make medical diagnoses of and medical decisions for other people's children? It's generally thought that this is the parents' decision because they have the most information about the child and the biggest "stake" in their child's success. Has it occurred to you that you might be working with incomplete information? Has it occurred to you that your con…

I have a diagnosis. Their teachers suspected a diagnosis and the child was tested. The child would benefit from treatment. The parents were asking for my opinion. As a tutor, I would be one of the first people that would know if a student is struggling and needs testing for a learning disorder. These situations I am talking about are specifically when the parent is clearly choosing to disregard information because th…

The fact that you and a teacher have diagnosed a child with ADHD means less than nothing. Medical advice from teachers has about as much weight as stock tips from them.

They were likely taken aback by how forward and certain you seem to have been about it. If you had instead said, "your child is having some academic trouble, maybe you should get him tested for a learning disability" it would have gone over better. Focus on providing advice within your area of expertise.

Teachers, in general, seem to feel entitled to be surrogate parents to children, but that's really not their role. Their job is solely to help the child learn.

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