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We need a lot more electricians

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Re: We need a lot more electricians

#181

Post by mfer »

bluGill wrote: post #125
mfer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is mooooore than enough spare grid capacity to deliver the electricity to electrify homes. I'm going to disagree with this for three reasons. 1) We have places that have brown outs today. The grid isn't able to deliver. In other areas people have setups where power companies can cut (for periods of time) power to their air conditioner and that is used. There have been other areas where cables have run into is…

You are confusing the grid with generation capacity. They are different. Generation capacity is where we have more need. For the most part the wires have enough capacity - though even then there are places that need upgrades.

I have a few reasons to believe the wires we have today aren't enough

1) I was recently talking with someone who lives in a community where homes have 60A service. The homes and last mile in places like that can't handle the draw people will need to electrify everything. 60A isn't enough.

2) Where I live there has been work to upgrade the wiring because it's not enough. It's not done yet and other communities I've been to have not been upgraded, yet. There are still areas where the current traveling through the lines today causes enough sag that I wait for something to break when things are at their peak.

3) Publications and communications from some power companies cover the need to upgrade the grid. Are they lying?

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#182

Post by jxramos »

somehnguy wrote: post #157
londons_explore wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may live in a place where the law doesn't require that. Or you may have found an electrician willing to turn a blind eye to that stuff. Or you might be about to get a far larger bill than expected when the electrician 'discovers' that midway through the job, and now isn't legally allowed to put it back as he found it.

I’m in NY, US and and the proper permit was pulled for the job, as well as hiring an independent inspector to check the work when finished. My particular electrician has been doing business for ~30 years so I doubt he’s risking violations over things like that, plus he would have to be colluding with the inspector. He already did an inspection of the work needed and planned it, it would be impossible for him to sudde…

would you mind sharing a link to that resource. Is there a union rate webpage or something of the like where you can dial in your region and type of work etc like an online calculator or is there just some table printed somewhere online?

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#183

Post by nemo44x »

greedo wrote: post #72
mankyd wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the answer is that induction is more efficient at getting heat into your food. With electric, it heats up a coil that heats up your pan (and the air around it) that heats your food. With induction, it skips the coil and simply heats the pan. The pans are specially designed to contain a heating coil in them which implicitly is closer to your food. It also means the work surface tends to cool quickly (or neve…

Induction compatible cookware doesn't have a heating coil. They just need ferrous metal in them. They can be clad in aluminum, with a ferrous core etc. A cast iron pan works fine, and most stainless steel cookware is fine. It's just the cheap teflon stuff that's out of luck.

> It's just the cheap teflon stuff that's out of luck.

And copper and aluminium. Some stoneware too as well as glass when needed.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#184

Post by stjohnswarts »

bluGill wrote: post #108
londons_explore wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's. A GFCI costs only $20 and can be installed inside 10 minutes. So it seems crazy to be letting people die... Yet typically electrical regs require that if an electrician installs a GFCI, they bring the whole house up to modern standard…

There is no way a pro can install a GFCI for less than $150 in the ideal case where everything else is up to code. Anything non ideal adds cost. While there isn't much labor, you also have to count the time to get from the last job to yours, and other overhead.

I'm guessing he was talking about DIY. It's not really that hard, I did it in the 3 circuits in my garage. I'm no pro, although I'm fairly knowledgeable in electronics and electricity.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#185

Post by iso1631 »

anikom15 wrote: post #100
londons_explore wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's. A GFCI costs only $20 and can be installed inside 10 minutes. So it seems crazy to be letting people die... Yet typically electrical regs require that if an electrician installs a GFCI, they bring the whole house up to modern standard…

Which country? In the U.S., GFCIs only need to be installed in specific locations, which is good. I do not want my refrigerator or computer on a GFCI. In the U.K., you just can’t have plugs in bathrooms (aside from the shaver plug), which is probably more sensible.

My understanding is a GFCI is an American term for an RCD or an RCBO?

My (UK) fridge is on a standard 30A breaker which itself comes off a single 80A/30mA RCD which was presumably part of the regs at one point. It's never tripped. All the RCBOs I've seen are 30mA too.

(I have some sockets on a 10A breaker downstream of this which have tripped - the house needs a total rewire, total bunch of bodge jobs from the previous owner, including a 13A socket in the bathroom)

Does a GFCI typically have a lower trip that 30mA?

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#186

Post by encoderer »

sbradford26 wrote: post #176
encoderer wrote: post #79

It sounds like it was just a COVID-related delay during the height of the pandemic. I also own a home in Berkeley and had no trouble getting 2 quotes for a panel replacement, and work started less than a week after the first phone call. It cost $12k for the new 200 amp panel and 4 new outlets. Now, landscape contractors, that’s been a harder nut to crack.

That is pretty brutal on the cost. We live north of Boston is a decently high cost of living area but nowhere near California. I got the our main panel upgraded from 100 amp to 200 amp, the mast and meter socket replaced, and 4 new outlets in the basement for $2400 in 2021.

Wow! Yeah, skilled trades are not cheap in the sf area. Also, restaurants and houses. Groceries used to be far more expensive than the rest of the country but my recent visits to family in the Midwest have me thinking they have almost caught up on that one.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#187

Post by mfer »

ilyt wrote: post #121
mfer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two pieces of evidence. 1) Places today have rolling brown outs at times in the year. Some power companies have seasons where they ask customers to limit their electricity use. Even peak load today can be a problem and the electrification of all the things means peak load will increase. 2) Articles that dig into this call out how the power grid will need to change to support the growth in consumption. When it's cover…

Dunno, in most of those cases it seems to be direct effect of companies saving on infrastructure maintenance and then shifting the problems on customers. I'd imagine if a given line can sustain peak heat AC usage it would also just be fine with flatter profile of heating the property.

> I'd imagine if a given line can sustain peak heat AC usage it would also just be fine with flatter profile of heating the property.

We aren't talking about heat and AC. We also need to cover EVs, electric tools (like chainsaws), electric heat, electric stoves, and other things. There is a push to electrify all the things.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#188

Post by dmm »

Filligree wrote: post #165
nemo44x wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally (in the USA) if you touch something in your home, you need to bring it up to code. You touch a wall, well now you need to make sure that wall has a socket in it, for example. Doing an addition? Well, now you need to ensure the entire house has fire/C02 detectors wired together with it.

> Generally (in the USA) if you touch something in your home, you need to bring it up to code. You touch a wall, well now you need to make sure that wall has a socket in it, for example. Sorry, is there a requirement that every single wall should have a socket? ...that's what extension cords are for.

> that's what extension cords are for.

That's exactly why every wall is required to have an outlet now, to reduce the use of extension cords.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#189

Post by bluGill »

whitej125 wrote: post #73
yboris wrote: post #17

Unrelated, but sharing just in case: I don't have electricity training, but last month I replaced my electric panel (upgrading to 30 circuits, keeping 100 amps) and it was easy: turn off every breaker (hiding face behind metal panel as is good safety strategy), turn off main, disconnect the meter, touch all dangling hot wires to ground (just in case, unsure if there's weird residual charge from something). Except for…

Did you have to break a seal on the meter to get to the meter disconnect? If so, what are the implications of that?

Call the electric company and they will send someone out to break the seal. After verifying you have the correct permits. If they trust you they will sometimes tell you to break the seal and call them when done.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#190

Post by sbradford26 »

bluGill wrote: post #178
bombcar wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an aside, for those watching from home - you can put LARGER connections downstream of smaller ones (50 amp outlet on a 40 amp breaker) because the worst case is your breaker will flip. You can put SMALLER outlets on a larger breaker (40 amp outlet on a 50 amp breaker) because the outlet is SUPPOSED to keep you from overloading it (and the outlet will actually be rated for more than the "plug size") The DANGER you…

Standard non-metallic 8 gauge wire is only allowed to handle 40 amps. If you want to put 50 amps to the outlet you need more expensive wire (most likely 6 gauge, but there are other forms of 8 gauge that are approved for 50 amps). Since most stoves only need 40 amps electricians will run non-metallic 8 gauge by default and put a 40 amp breaker on it - then since there isn't such a thing as a 40 amp outlet they have a…

Yeah the main relationship that matters is the breaker to wire.

There is a fun semi related thing. Can you put 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit? The answer is yes you can, but only if there is at least two receptacles, and a standard duplex outlet counts at two receptacles.

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