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We need a lot more electricians

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Re: We need a lot more electricians

#121

Post by ilyt »

mfer wrote: post #107
epistasis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transportation is literally already battery, it is trivial to load shift charging, and in fact standard practice for anybody with electric transportation already! Heating is similarly trivial to load shift; heat or cool a little extra before the peak, stop during the peak, and then pick up afterwards. This goes for both space and water heating. Do you have any evidence about what upgrades are needed? I have a feeling…

Two pieces of evidence. 1) Places today have rolling brown outs at times in the year. Some power companies have seasons where they ask customers to limit their electricity use. Even peak load today can be a problem and the electrification of all the things means peak load will increase. 2) Articles that dig into this call out how the power grid will need to change to support the growth in consumption. When it's cover…

Dunno, in most of those cases it seems to be direct effect of companies saving on infrastructure maintenance and then shifting the problems on customers.

I'd imagine if a given line can sustain peak heat AC usage it would also just be fine with flatter profile of heating the property.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#122

Post by bryanlarsen »

mfer wrote: post #82
epistasis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is mooooore than enough spare grid capacity to deliver the electricity to electrify homes. We size the grid for peak capacity, not for average capacity, which means that there's a very low overall usage amount. And the big drivers of additional electricity, heating and transportation, are easily shiftable to non-peak times. And as we have smarter devices, and more time of use billing, load shifting will be easy…

> There is mooooore than enough spare grid capacity to deliver the electricity to electrify homes. I'm going to disagree with this for three reasons. 1) We have places that have brown outs today. The grid isn't able to deliver. In other areas people have setups where power companies can cut (for periods of time) power to their air conditioner and that is used. There have been other areas where cables have run into is…

The current problem is caused by growth and air conditioning demand. Slowing down the transition to EV's and electrify everything won't fix current problems nor will they significantly exacerbate the problems.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#123

Post by jsmith45 »

lisper wrote: post #21
yboris wrote: post #17

Unrelated, but sharing just in case: I don't have electricity training, but last month I replaced my electric panel (upgrading to 30 circuits, keeping 100 amps) and it was easy: turn off every breaker (hiding face behind metal panel as is good safety strategy), turn off main, disconnect the meter, touch all dangling hot wires to ground (just in case, unsure if there's weird residual charge from something). Except for…

Did you upgrade your wiring? Your old breakers were the size they were for a reason.

That's not a consideration here. They were just replacing a smaller 100A panel with a larger one. with more circuit spots. That is always allowed.

As long as you you use a panel that accepts the same type of breakers, you can also re-use the existing breakers, unless code require upgrading to AFCI breakers. Otherwise you swap them for new breakers of the same rating. (Assuming the US: There are some inspectors who would ok a panel swap that reused the existing breakers without requiring upgrades, but technically upgrading is supposed to be required, unless your state amended out the AFCI requirements in the state version of the code). Note: technically many breakers can fit in competitor panels, but they are not legal. They were not designed nor tested to trip at proper ratings in those panels, and using them violate the labeling of the panel.

Now obviously the reason for upgrading the panel is to add more circuits, and it is possible that these additional circuits if added would need more power than the 100A service can provide. To technically comply with code, you need to follow the rules to calculate the expected loading of existing circuits plus planned new circuits.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#124

Post by somehnguy »

londons_explore wrote: post #43
pyb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most countries, I don't think you're required to update your home every time the electrical code gets a change. However, many electricians will try to sell you on this unnecessary work.

You are normally required to update anything an electrician touches or could impact. So if you are having a new socket added in your kitchen, then all the other sockets in the kitchen on the same circuit will need updating, and the breaker for the kitchen. But you probably won't have to have your living room rewired.

Are you certain about that?

I’m having a new service entry cable, meter box, and main breaker panel put in next week. By its nature that should impact every single circuit in my house. But my electrician isn’t touching anything besides what I listed above, and I know that there are multiple other things around the house not up to current code.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#125

Post by bluGill »

mfer wrote: post #82
epistasis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is mooooore than enough spare grid capacity to deliver the electricity to electrify homes. We size the grid for peak capacity, not for average capacity, which means that there's a very low overall usage amount. And the big drivers of additional electricity, heating and transportation, are easily shiftable to non-peak times. And as we have smarter devices, and more time of use billing, load shifting will be easy…

> There is mooooore than enough spare grid capacity to deliver the electricity to electrify homes. I'm going to disagree with this for three reasons. 1) We have places that have brown outs today. The grid isn't able to deliver. In other areas people have setups where power companies can cut (for periods of time) power to their air conditioner and that is used. There have been other areas where cables have run into is…

You are confusing the grid with generation capacity. They are different. Generation capacity is where we have more need. For the most part the wires have enough capacity - though even then there are places that need upgrades.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#126

Post by mwattsun »

I was an electrician in the US Navy but couldn't get an electricians job out of the Navy without starting over. We could help this shortage if we did more to qualify military electricians as civilian electricians when they leave the military.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#127

Post by powera »

photonbeam wrote: post #30
powera wrote: post #12

The critical path of "install more solar panels" is not at all gated by the cost of solar panels these days. It is the electrical work (both within in the home, and "interconnect") that is the expensive bottleneck. (( also batteries are also a bottleneck. but a different one. ))

Panels are getting cheap enough that its almost worth just laying them on the ground in the yard than paying to put them on the roof

I wouldn't put panels where they are easily gnawed upon by rats and mice.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#128

Post by nemo44x »

pyb wrote: post #33
BitwiseFool wrote: post #11

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

In most countries, I don't think you're required to update your home every time the electrical code gets a change. However, many electricians will try to sell you on this unnecessary work.

Generally (in the USA) if you touch something in your home, you need to bring it up to code. You touch a wall, well now you need to make sure that wall has a socket in it, for example.

Doing an addition? Well, now you need to ensure the entire house has fire/C02 detectors wired together with it.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#129

Post by BitwiseFool »

planetafro wrote: post #57
BitwiseFool wrote: post #11

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

I feel like some of this should be "grand-fathered" in. Perhaps you were a victim of an upsell. Any electricians that can verify? For example, I needed a new fence. I got a few quotes and most were DRASTICALLY high priced as they wanted to move my fence to comply with current code. An older, more experienced worker had no problems with permits and said I was grand-fathered in because it was already existing. I even s…

I made sure to shop around and even asked my neighbors who had the same houseplan about the electrical work they had to get done in the past. The previous owners had neglected to replace some components that had been recalled decades ago, so that obligation ultimately fell to me.

I did manage to get a few things grandfathered in, like being able to keep a three pronged outlet for the dryer. But ultimately I made peace with the fact that the house's electrical system was in a neglected state and the fixes simply had to be made.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#130

Post by dml2135 »

treeman79 wrote: post #69
epistasis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is mooooore than enough spare grid capacity to deliver the electricity to electrify homes. We size the grid for peak capacity, not for average capacity, which means that there's a very low overall usage amount. And the big drivers of additional electricity, heating and transportation, are easily shiftable to non-peak times. And as we have smarter devices, and more time of use billing, load shifting will be easy…

A recent cold snap left East coast with rolling black outs across a number of states. This is not California where you put on a warm jacket. You heat the home, find shelter somewhere or die. I kept getting notes to hold off on using appliances for a few days. Can imagine that if our areas heat was electric that would have collapsed the grid.

Just have a wood stove or fireplace for emergencies? Harder in cities but anywhere with detached homes, this doesn't seem like a difficult problem to solve.
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