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A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

nytimes.com

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Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#151

Post by defrost »

rowtheway wrote: post #147
kergonath wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to Islam According to a perverted, fundamentalist view of Islam. Islam is much more diverse than Iran and Saudi Arabia. The fact that they manage to impose their sectarian practices as standard Islam in much of the world is very problematic.

This optimistic view of the Islamic world is, sadly, inaccurate. For example, as of 2013, an overwhelming majority of Muslims wish to make Sharia the law of the land: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-m...

This pessimistic view of Islam is equally inaccurate. From your own link:

> In most regions, fewer favor other specific aspects of sharia, such as cutting off the hands of thieves and executing people who convert from Islam to another faith.

Just as most Christians believe that Christian values should guide the law of the land they live in and just as most Christians don't support setting bears on children that mock priests.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#152

Post by gnull »

kergonath wrote: post #93
gnull wrote: post #61

Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? In the end, you will have one of the two encompass the other. Either you have a secular country living by democratic, progressive law which allows people to be Muslims modulo this. Or you have a Muslim country living by Shariah law, but tolerating secular non-believers in it. First won't work because Muslims (in the traditional sense) won't tolerate…

> Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? It is. There are plenty of more or less practising Muslims who behave perfectly well and are strongly opposed to theocracy. In the same way that there are plenty of white Christians who don’t feel the urge to take a gun and mow down blasphemers. > And second won't work because Shariah law gives very concrete directions on dealing with non-believers…

You're right, I shouldn't be generalising.

> Lots of Muslims do not believe that Shariah law should be applied.

I feel that one big difference of Islam is that it makes the rules very explicit, from how the government should be organized to the last detail of how you should wash your hands (and how often). Christianity, on the other hand, has very few concrete regulations, but instead a ton of metaphysical, mystical and ethical things from which people are trying to deduce those regulations.

So Christianity was easier to steer away from being a concrete manual for life to being a philosophical thing, a matter of choice that people who live within secular ethical framework can voluntarily practice. My question is, if you do the same to Islam will it still be Islam given how deeply the practical instructions are ebedded in it?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I have a rather rudimentary education in both topics.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#153

Post by pvaldes »

I wonder. Why are this classes still opened to muslim students?

Seriously. Why?. What's the point of all this drama?

Teachers risk entire careers. Risk decades of hard study and even their lives, to show students concepts like free speech and different points of view.

Students don't seem to appreciate the effort. Each single time, somebody will feel justified to use this situation to feel outraged and punish the teacher. Their families will use it politically and ask for public lynching. Is always the same history.

Wouldn't be more wise for the university to apply a self-defence stance and made muslim students to pick a different class. Period. No exceptions?

Save yourself all the bullying, and the undesirable publicity. Why to be forced to burn valuable human resources in a war that is not your war?. Why universities still accept the role of the dummy punching bag in this history? They should know better.

Wouldn't be better also for muslim students not to force them to choose between the university and their families?

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#154

Post by anthk »

pnf wrote: post #146
anthk wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which is "interesting" given the history of Moorish conquest of Iberia and the Treaty of Grenada and the Inquisition. Why? In Spain either you converted to Christianism 500 years ago or you got expelled. Most of Moors which came into Iberia where from modern Morocco origin and a few from Algeria. And a lot of them have "interesting" beliefs, such as drinking in private. Also, every Moroccan has satellite TV and for…

Precisely. It is interesting it is not more given the history and proximity to Morocco. It is interesting it is not less given the expulsions and forced conversions.

Morocco and Andalucia are pretty close, you can spot Morocco´s coast from some places. Also, there is the issue of Ceuta and Melilla.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#155

Post by posterboy »

kergonath wrote: post #93
gnull wrote: post #61

Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? In the end, you will have one of the two encompass the other. Either you have a secular country living by democratic, progressive law which allows people to be Muslims modulo this. Or you have a Muslim country living by Shariah law, but tolerating secular non-believers in it. First won't work because Muslims (in the traditional sense) won't tolerate…

> Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? It is. There are plenty of more or less practising Muslims who behave perfectly well and are strongly opposed to theocracy. In the same way that there are plenty of white Christians who don’t feel the urge to take a gun and mow down blasphemers. > And second won't work because Shariah law gives very concrete directions on dealing with non-believers…

>It is. There are plenty of more or less practising Muslims who behave perfectly well and are strongly opposed to theocracy.

Bit of a false scottsman. Not every Italian eats Tagliatelle and joins the Mafia but it's still an Italian recipe.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#156

Post by ssth »

Sakos wrote: post #105
ssth wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does not imply an obligation from me to give any remote fuck I don't think this attitude suitable in the diverse community where there are different ethnics or religons. People should care what the other find things unconfortable and should be aware that what you think acceptable is may not so for the others. Of course if you mean let them do their own things and you do not mean offense or insult them, I thank you…

I have zero tolerance for people who push their religious views on others and also use their religion to justify violence. This goes for Islam just as much for Christianity. I don't hear much about Christians beheading people over insulting Jesus in Europe though.

> I have zero tolerance for people who push their religious views on others and also use their religion to justify violence.

Those who push their religious views on others and also use their religion to justify violence are extremely minority, majority of muslims do not do those things. And "bad muslims" always in those media or news because who would read articles about "nice muslim". So you should know what I mean.

And insulting *any* religions is not acceptable and deserve to be punished. As for beheading punishment though, I do not have enough knowledge to comment about it.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#157

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

leeroyjenkins11 wrote: post #145
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> institutions act outraged over Florida's "don't say gay" bill Were you upset of the 'don't say gay bill'? It's an example, not just of a single school acting to restrict academic freedom and freedom of expression in general, but the actual government enforcing this on ALL schools. That should be enraging to anyone who cares about freedom. A elementary school teacher was fired not too long ago for reading 'A need a…

The bill in Florida was perfectly reasonable. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age- appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students according to state standards. 3rd grade classrooms are not places of intellectual freedom. They are places of indoctrination. A third grader…

Why can't the banning depictions of mohammad also be 'perfectly reasonable' because it university classrooms are not places of intellectual freedom, they are places of indoctrination. I can't think of any good reason for a teacher to want to violate this policy unless they want to push their own agenda onto the students. See how generic your defense is? It can be used for anything you disagree with.

'I need a new butt', was a book on the schools reading list. Was firing that teacher perfectly reasonable also? Was a funny book about butts indoctrination?

Critical race theory is being muzzled at the university level by the government in florida. Are you angry about that overreach by state?

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#158

Post by prox »

NickC25 wrote: post #138

I really don't like pandering to the religious beliefs of a minority, especially when said group was given tons of precautions from the professor. The student in question still made the choice to show up to class, made the choice to complain, and made the choice to cry in front of other students saying that she felt deeply offended. The girl was given every chance to avoid this altogether, but instead chose to put he…

Even if it was a religious majority it should stand. She was trying give an example of art history , how it was. The fact that some believe it is outlawed in their beliefsystem (which is a result of the Wahhabism movement as I understand it) is exactly the point of learning and knowing the context of which an image was made in.

It’s indeed a form of maturity. Or learning or aspiring to be exposed to other viewpoints and ways of seeing.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#159

Post by rowtheway »

defrost wrote: post #151
rowtheway wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This optimistic view of the Islamic world is, sadly, inaccurate. For example, as of 2013, an overwhelming majority of Muslims wish to make Sharia the law of the land: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-m...

This pessimistic view of Islam is equally inaccurate. From your own link: > In most regions, fewer favor other specific aspects of sharia, such as cutting off the hands of thieves and executing people who convert from Islam to another faith. Just as most Christians believe that Christian values should guide the law of the land they live in and just as most Christians don't support setting bears on children that mock…

>and just as most Christians don't support setting bears on children that mock priests.

I’m not Christian (anymore) but I’m pretty sure this isn’t a thing in canon law.

In contrast, the major strains of Islam are refreshingly clear in their treatment of apostates and unbelievers. Even a “kinder, gentler” interpretation retains the seeds of this dogma unless it rejects the Quran, which Islam holds to be the literal word of God. If you don’t hold with that, you’re not Muslim by definition.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#160

Post by wazoox »

Multicomp wrote: post #123
morby wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize there are 2 million Muslims living in America without any problem right? Take your bigotry elsewhere, HN is typically more elevated than that.

I read the GP comment more charitably than that in the context of the thread in general terms. More like "if one arbitrary student (of no particular description) can cause this much damage, how much damage can multiple like-minded students (of any particular alliance) cause?" And that question would apply to secularists Muslims Christians etc. equally. Not necessarily "if one Muslim can do this, how much damage can l…

That's not targeting Muslims, that's targeting fanatics of all ideologies.
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