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A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

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Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#121

Post by TillE »

kergonath wrote: post #93
gnull wrote: post #61

Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? In the end, you will have one of the two encompass the other. Either you have a secular country living by democratic, progressive law which allows people to be Muslims modulo this. Or you have a Muslim country living by Shariah law, but tolerating secular non-believers in it. First won't work because Muslims (in the traditional sense) won't tolerate…

> Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? It is. There are plenty of more or less practising Muslims who behave perfectly well and are strongly opposed to theocracy. In the same way that there are plenty of white Christians who don’t feel the urge to take a gun and mow down blasphemers. > And second won't work because Shariah law gives very concrete directions on dealing with non-believers…

To underline the point, nearly half of American Catholics are pro-choice. Religions really aren't a monolith, even when the stern Official Doctrine is quite clear.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#122

Post by whatyesaid »

hutzlibu wrote: post #112
whatyesaid wrote: post #85

Not sure why it's a fireable offence since precautions were taken. Give a strike or whatever and debate it's relevance to the course of "art history". I don't think the painting itself is significant, it could just be referenced. The context of why the painting is banned inside of Islam is relevant as previously there was a lot of idol worship and even nowadays figureheads like Jesus are now claimed to be God, stuff…

"the context of why the painting is banned inside of Islam is relevant" How is that relevant to anyone not muslim? Because this is what this is about - (some) muslims wanting other people to follow their religious rules.

Well, when I said relevant or not relevant, significant or whatever, I mean in terms of the class "art history".

It's not like any of the painting depictions had any notable art styles nor new techniques, from what I can tell. So I think it crosses moreso into the intersection of religion and art, that's why historical context becomes relevant. If you deem context irrelevant then why include any of it unless the art has some different quality about it?

I think there was art novelty with the decorations of churches and mosques though.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#123

Post by Multicomp »

morby wrote: post #90
wazoox wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the harm a group of those fanatics can achieve if one student can make a whole University comply to his intolerant whims. Karl Popper famously said that an open and tolerant society must manage carefully the intolerant... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

You realize there are 2 million Muslims living in America without any problem right? Take your bigotry elsewhere, HN is typically more elevated than that.

I read the GP comment more charitably than that in the context of the thread in general terms.

More like "if one arbitrary student (of no particular description) can cause this much damage, how much damage can multiple like-minded students (of any particular alliance) cause?" And that question would apply to secularists Muslims Christians etc. equally.

Not necessarily "if one Muslim can do this, how much damage can lots of Muslims do?"

But maybe I'm wrong? I could see how you got that impression upon rereading the comment.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#124

Post by hutzlibu »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #8

If south park gets censored for it, then what chance does anyone else have?

That's a reference to South Parks great 200/201 episode, which are all about that topic and in which Kyles speech at the end got censored. Despite there is no single frame, where Muhammad is shown. But the speech probably contained too much uncomfortable truth :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TMHIYDHMSE

"If there's anything we have learned, is that terrorizing works"

"If you don't want people to make fun of you anymore, all you need are guns and bombs"

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#125

Post by rowtheway »

ModernMech wrote: post #102
wonderwonder wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? If you speak ill of "white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men" will you lose your job? Will you lose your job in liberal universities if you speak ill of Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, African Americans? In case of perceived bias, I'm a swing voting (95% Dem) Jew.

Yes, depending on what you say, absolutely. If I stood in my classroom and made blanket disparaging statements about cis men or Christians or white people, I guarantee students in those groups would go to the admin and complain. If what I said was bad enough, I’d likely be fired.

You wouldn’t get fired at Rutgers:

https://torontosun.com/life/rutgers-professor-calls-white-pe...

Or Drexel:

https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/26/health/drexel-professor-white...

Or Yale:

https://news.yahoo.com/psychiatrist-delivered-lecture-yale-d...

But say things that are embarrassing yet true of minority students at Georgetown, and you’ll be fired and disowned by the college in under 48 hours:

https://news.yahoo.com/georgetown-law-professor-fired-over-1...

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#126

Post by nnf »

kergonath wrote: post #93
gnull wrote: post #61

Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? In the end, you will have one of the two encompass the other. Either you have a secular country living by democratic, progressive law which allows people to be Muslims modulo this. Or you have a Muslim country living by Shariah law, but tolerating secular non-believers in it. First won't work because Muslims (in the traditional sense) won't tolerate…

> Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? It is. There are plenty of more or less practising Muslims who behave perfectly well and are strongly opposed to theocracy. In the same way that there are plenty of white Christians who don’t feel the urge to take a gun and mow down blasphemers. > And second won't work because Shariah law gives very concrete directions on dealing with non-believers…

> pretty much nobody believes that the laws in the Old Testament should be applied or have any relevance nowadays.

The Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament, and there are lots of conservative Christians in the U.S. trying to get them posted in courtrooms and public school classrooms.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#127

Post by anthk »

laxmin wrote: post #74

Unfortunately, the world is such that losing a job is the least pain and torture. In India, a Lady, Nupur Sharma merely quote the Hadith about Mohammad's marriage to Aisha and she had to go underground. Many people lost their lives. The Islamists call for 'San Tan se Juda' - Separation of the Head from the Body. The Islamic world needs a renaissance.

[flagged]

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#128

Post by dwheeler »

MadsRC wrote: post #22
benj111 wrote: post #3

Isn't it prohibited to depict any of god's creations in some/many/all Islamic sects? Thus all the interesting geometric patterns. Does that mean that virtually all Western art is islamaphobic? At what point does the demand that Western art doesn't do something that offend Islam itself become westernphobic.

It is not prohibited by the Quran at all, at least I’ve never found a reference in the Quran that indicates that it is forbidden. Please do correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been many years since I last read the Quran. The Bible however, does actually forbid it: Exodus 20:4 I seem to remember that Jehovas Witnesses actually practice this as they take the words of the Bible literally. I’m by no way an expert on theology,…

Most Jews and Christians interpret this text as prohibiting the creating and worshipping of idols, not of prohibiting images in general. As long as it's not being directly worshipped, or being created for that purpose, you're fine. As always for any text, it's important to read the text before and after it. I think its context makes it clear that the text is addressing just idols.

As evidence, consider the vast number of practicing Jews and Christians who were or are artists. Also consider the vast number of churches which have artwork (like stained glass and statues).

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#129

Post by posterboy »

janalsncm wrote: post #69
PaulRobinson wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you assuming they are foreigners? Why do you assume these were not natives in their own country who held these feelings anyway? Do you observe and respect any festivities in the calendar at all? Christmas? Thanksgiving? Easter? Passover? Diwali? Why are these not "dumb superstitions", but other people's are? You don't get to decide how somebody else is going to react to something, you only get to decide if yo…

Great response. I’m surprised to see xenophobia on HN. This story is about overbearing administrators infringing on academic freedoms, not Islam vs Western Values. But a lot of people have the Islam v The West hammer, so they’re going to use it in this nail. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument

>... her faculty decided it was insufficient. So what would have been sufficient?

>That we can have a debate about, but some BS about "western values" and a strawman argument about "submitting" to "superstitions" is not even worth me caring about, ...

Difficult to have an argument about after the fact. "You are free to leave" seems to be the exact argument that was made, beyond that there is no argument that would have been sufficient. If that's not enough, it is because of superstition, for lack of a better word. And this caused a panic reaction. It would be superstition even if the sides were switched and Feedome of Speech were the deeply held, now insulted believe that would include for example showing religious imagery in class (often forbidden in school charters to create a neutral environment).

From what I read I guess that Freiheit der Lehre (freedom of lecturing) is fairly constrained and lecturers are generally treated not with the same respect as a professor for whom they work. So it is to some a degree a systematic, institutional proble about powerstructures. Not worth the risk can become either you are not worth it, subjectively, or you are btter than that, optimistically speaking. Now I don't have a cromulent quote handy on collectively held believes. Suppose there is no mainstream concensus on that.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#130

Post by anthk »

pnf wrote: post #108
viraptor wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In Europe" often doesn't makes sense as a generalisation. Both the UK and France have a significant Muslim population. That does not extend to Europe in general though. France is ~6% Muslim with large communities. Poland is well <0.1% with anti-islam ideas being common.

Germany is also ~6% Muslim. But one could argue whether Germans are a significant part of "Europe". Belgium is ~5% but that's just the seat of the EU, not a real country. Spain is ~3%, which is "interesting" given the history of Moorish conquest of Iberia and the Treaty of Grenada and the Inquisition. 2-3% in Italy, but Catholics and Muslims have a long tradition of living together in harmony. Poland's % may be a res…

> which is "interesting" given the history of Moorish conquest of Iberia and the Treaty of Grenada and the Inquisition.

Why? In Spain either you converted to Christianism 500 years ago or you got expelled. Most of Moors which came into Iberia where from modern Morocco origin and a few from Algeria. And a lot of them have "interesting" beliefs, such as drinking in private.

Also, every Moroccan has satellite TV and for sure they follow the Spanish soccer Liga.

They are very aware of Flamenco in Andalusia and the tiling from toilet rooms, which are the same in Andalusia and Morocco, or pretty close. Thus, they get assimilated fast in Spain to the Western values.

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