A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job • Hacker News Board

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#91

Post by posterboy » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

ssth wrote: post #52

qsort wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just one more reason why we shouldn't care. A person's freedom to practice Islam does not imply an obligation from me to give any remote fuck.

> does not imply an obligation from me to give any remote fuck I don't think this attitude suitable in the diverse community where there are different ethnics or religons. People should care what the other find things unconfortable and should be aware that what you think acceptable is may not so for the others. Of course if you mean let them do their own things and you do not mean offense or insult them, I thank you…

I'm pretty sure everyone is aware that getting stabbed to death is "uncomfortable". I'd certainly not not "give a fuck" if it happened to me because I literally looked at somebody the wrong way.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#92

Post by jnovek » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #55

This was the wrong decision. Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country but everyone else is a protected class. Even speaking positively or respectfully discussing the protected classes in a vaguely defined wrong way…

> This was the wrong decision.

It seems like it. It seems like the university didn’t even clearly understand that Muslims are divided on this topic before taking action.

> Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country but everyone else is a protected class.

This, however, is just straight up alt-right talking points.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#93

Post by kergonath » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:09 PM UTC

gnull wrote: post #61

Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? In the end, you will have one of the two encompass the other. Either you have a secular country living by democratic, progressive law which allows people to be Muslims modulo this. Or you have a Muslim country living by Shariah law, but tolerating secular non-believers in it. First won't work because Muslims (in the traditional sense) won't tolerate…

> Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country?

It is. There are plenty of more or less practising Muslims who behave perfectly well and are strongly opposed to theocracy. In the same way that there are plenty of white Christians who don’t feel the urge to take a gun and mow down blasphemers.

> And second won't work because Shariah law gives very concrete directions on dealing with non-believers.

It’s a false dichotomy. Lots of Muslims do not believe that Shariah law should be applied. On the Christian side there have been debates for centuries about this sort of issue, and pretty much nobody believes that the laws in the Old Testament should be applied or have any relevance nowadays. By painting the whole of Islam as being one simple shade of fundamentalism, we contribute to making the situation worse. People need to realise that there are old Muslim traditions that don’t advocate for stoning people, and that what we take for standard Islam is the creed of a particular cult and not universal.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#94

Post by morby » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:09 PM UTC

posterboy wrote: post #83

morby wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam isn’t a country. It’s an ideology that can be practiced by anyone.

It's not even an ideology if you look at it that way but it is a state religion by design, that has various implementations depending on who's to benefit. It prescribes universal obligations which they have in common. Some other dogmas are subject to interpretation. So the question needs to be cast in another light, sure. It's a hard problem that isn't solved by calling on an ideology.

This comment makes little sense, does not negate the fact Islam is an ideology, and does nothing to contribute to this discussion.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#95

Post by laserdancepony » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:09 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #92

wonderwonder wrote: post #55

This was the wrong decision. Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country but everyone else is a protected class. Even speaking positively or respectfully discussing the protected classes in a vaguely defined wrong way…

> This was the wrong decision. It seems like it. It seems like the university didn’t even clearly understand that Muslims are divided on this topic before taking action. > Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country bu…

> This, however, is just straight up alt-right talking points.

I beg to differ, this is exactly my impression, too.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#96

Post by wonderwonder » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #92

wonderwonder wrote: post #55

This was the wrong decision. Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country but everyone else is a protected class. Even speaking positively or respectfully discussing the protected classes in a vaguely defined wrong way…

> This was the wrong decision. It seems like it. It seems like the university didn’t even clearly understand that Muslims are divided on this topic before taking action. > Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country bu…

Really? If you speak ill of "white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men" will you lose your job? Will you lose your job in liberal universities if you speak ill of Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, African Americans? In case of perceived bias, I'm a swing voting (95% Dem) Jew.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#97

Post by morby » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

mruniverse wrote: post #75

DoctorOW wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends from person to person. Anyone I've met who is Muslim seem incredibly tolerant to me.

Tolerant enough to support an art history professor who showed an image depicting Muhammad?

The ones I know would be, yes. They’d also think it’s odd some people feel the existential need to do it.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#98

Post by Sakos » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #92

wonderwonder wrote: post #55

This was the wrong decision. Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country but everyone else is a protected class. Even speaking positively or respectfully discussing the protected classes in a vaguely defined wrong way…

> This was the wrong decision. It seems like it. It seems like the university didn’t even clearly understand that Muslims are divided on this topic before taking action. > Liberal institutions in the west have begun to increasingly yield to the demands of extremist minority views and doing so only emboldens them. You are free to insult white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men in this country bu…

I'm not alt-right and I'm not white and I'm not religious. I agree completely with that view.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#99

Post by mruniverse » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

morby wrote: post #97

mruniverse wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tolerant enough to support an art history professor who showed an image depicting Muhammad?

The ones I know would be, yes. They’d also think it’s odd some people feel the existential need to do it.

As long as it's only thinking people odd.

Not sure if the professor felt existential about it but she said:

“I am showing you this image for a reason. And that is that there is this common thinking that Islam completely forbids, outright, any figurative depictions or any depictions of holy personages. While many Islamic cultures do strongly frown on this practice, I would like to remind you there is no one, monothetic Islamic culture,”

https://hamlineoracle.com/10750/news/who-belongs/

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#100

Post by aorth » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

It's crazy that this happened at all, let alone in an art history context. For the record, there are at least two academic sources attesting that the prohibition on depiction of the prophet Muhammad are recent.

1. Wijdan Ali's From the Literal to the Spiritual: The Development of the Prophet Muhammad's Portrayal from 13th Century Ilkhanid Miniatures to 17th Century Ottoman Art. 1999. Open Access, available here: https://webspace.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/islam/downloads/ejo...

2. Christiane Gruber's The Praiseworthy One: The Prophet Muhammad in Islamic Texts and Images. 2019. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37702531-the-praiseworth...