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Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

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Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#111

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

alexvoda wrote: post #106
culi wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

physical buttons are reliable, easily repairable, more accessible to people with a variety of conditions, allow you to memorize location with feel, etc. I've never met anyone who's preferred capacitive buttons over physical ones yet more and more every "smart" technology seems to be opting for them. Some have even added haptic touch-like software to them... just to regain the feeling of the thing that everyone misses…

Apart from regulation mandating that safety features work, are reliable and are easy to use (physical buttons), I think we need some new economic theory. Why is it that for products with complex spec sheets, the free market (the auto industry is arguably not a free market) does not work to provide the desired diversity? Automakers clearly have the incentive to make any control a capacitive touch surface for many many…

The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do. It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want. For example, everyone wants a simple and reliable inkjet printer for home that doesn't have drm or other bullshit. But we aren't getting it and probably never will.

I sincerely hope that capacitance buttons and touchscreens are just a fad like digital speed dials from the 80s. They seemed cool, but ultmately analog dials (even if controlled by digital signals) were just better. I think physical knobs and buttons will come back for the same reason as round steering wheels. It's just the best solution to the problem.

Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#112

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

solarkraft wrote: post #109
devnulll wrote: post #32

I have 20k miles driving a Model S with a Yoke. While I'm not a huge fan, the yoke itself is only part of the problem. The bigger problems are: 1. The capacitive buttons for turn signals. They are dangerous. They require taking eyes from the road, offer no feedback, and are honestly dangerous. 2. The horn. It's not in the middle. It's off to the side as a no-feedback capacitive button. Every time I've needed to use t…

Makes you wonder when they'll turn the pedals and steering wheel into capacitive touch interfaces.

Worse, they'll make them into the touch-screen where you have to do a specific gesture to turn right, a different one to turn left, and one needing both hands to apply the brakes.

Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#113

Post by NoToP »

hulitu wrote: post #104
Lendal wrote: post #22

It wasn't the shape of the wheel that was the problem. It was the unasked-for capacitive-touch turn signal buttons located on the left side of the wheel, instead of a turn-signal lever. The round wheel keeps those useless buttons, so is not a solution to the problem. You still have to use your left thumb to pick between these two buttons. They don't push in, have no feedback and they are often unresponsive, especiall…

You should be happy that the pedals do not slide when you take turns. /s That is what happens when web developers design cars.

The turn signals and horn are hidden in a hamburger menu. Brakes and accelerator both hang waiting on a callback from Google analytics. Approx 30mb of js are downloaded each time you want to roll the windows just to make pointless assanine "breezy/not breezy" animations play on hover. The windshield wipers do half a wipe and then the windshield goes dark and a modal pops up asking if you want to subscribe.

Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#114

Post by alexvoda »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #111
alexvoda wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from regulation mandating that safety features work, are reliable and are easy to use (physical buttons), I think we need some new economic theory. Why is it that for products with complex spec sheets, the free market (the auto industry is arguably not a free market) does not work to provide the desired diversity? Automakers clearly have the incentive to make any control a capacitive touch surface for many many…

The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do. It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want. For example, everyone wants a simple and reliable inkjet printer for home that doesn't have drm or other bullshit. But we aren't getting it and probably never will. I sincerely hope that capacitance buttons a…

> The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do.

That is a fair assessment. But what is the cause of it? What I am saying is we need better models. Better theory.

> It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want.

And what is the cause of the bandwagoning? I generally do not think it is a case of industry wide collusion (though in some cases it might be). Why is a company going the opposite direction of a trend and marketing that difference a somewhat rare phenomenon? At least partially, I think the cause is marketing driven development. But that still doesn't explain why marketing departments are shy to market going against a trend. It's as if marketing departments of companies buy into the marketing of the trendy company.

How many smartphone companies actively advertise they still have phone jacks? How many car companies actively advertise they are still using physical buttons? They could but they don't. Samsung used to make fun of Apple in their ads but even they became apathetic. Apple used to make fun of the rest of the industry with their Mac vs PC ads. Sony could easily make an ad showing how a DJ takes their Sony phone and plugs it in literally everywhere using the jack to play music to a crowd.

[s] Damnit, I want my car to have hot-swappable, RGB-illuminated, Cherry MX mechanical switches with double-shot keycaps. [/s]

Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#115

Post by tablespoon »

> There are even some driving scenarios where the butterfly not only becomes impractical but potentially dangerous....

> As for the lack of stalks, Tesla replaced all of their functions with force touch buttons on the wheel, even for things like turn signals and the horn. Musk’s logic is that “all input is an error,” and that the car should automatically perform all the functions that were on the stalks (now on the force touch buttons).

Was Musk's New Year's resolution to shatter, one and for all, the world's belief in his competence?

All of these choices were really, really stupid.

Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#116

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

alexvoda wrote: post #114
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do. It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want. For example, everyone wants a simple and reliable inkjet printer for home that doesn't have drm or other bullshit. But we aren't getting it and probably never will. I sincerely hope that capacitance buttons a…

> The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do. That is a fair assessment. But what is the cause of it? What I am saying is we need better models. Better theory. > It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want. And what is the cause of the bandwagoning? I generally do not think it is a case of indust…

There is probably more than one cause, but consider the headphone jack one. Apple decided it wanted to get rid of it. Reasons were that they could make regular headphones less convenient (needs dongle) while simultaneously convincing people that air pods are the thing to have. They didn't have to market 'against' the headphone jack, only add friction to use it (via dongle) while heavily marketing 'for' air pods. Nokia wouldn't have gotten away with this, but Apple could because of clout, product status symbology, and massive cash spends available for ads. Most people don't really like the loss, but the idea of not having the latest phone was worse, so they bought them. Other phone manufacturers then follow suit because they see apple sales and think, they must be doing the right thing. Meanwhile, we hate it.

Telsa was the same for cars. They came out with a bunch of style choices that most people don't really care for, but the status of having a telsa (at least until recently) was a more powerful driver so they bought the car. Other auto manufacturers interpret this as that its what the consumer wants (or will accept) and change accordingly, especially if it also saves them money. Then boom, we get cars with crappy UI.

So I guess my theory is that if an industry has a clear leader whose product offers status along with function, they can make the customer accept pretty much whatever they want. After that, the competition just copies it hoping to keep what market share they have.

Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#117

Post by alexvoda »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #116
alexvoda wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do. That is a fair assessment. But what is the cause of it? What I am saying is we need better models. Better theory. > It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want. And what is the cause of the bandwagoning? I generally do not think it is a case of indust…

There is probably more than one cause, but consider the headphone jack one. Apple decided it wanted to get rid of it. Reasons were that they could make regular headphones less convenient (needs dongle) while simultaneously convincing people that air pods are the thing to have. They didn't have to market 'against' the headphone jack, only add friction to use it (via dongle) while heavily marketing 'for' air pods. Noki…

I agree with your analysis and it matches my thoughts.

But then, wouldn't a naive conclusion be that in order to maintain the freedom of the market, the appearance of status symbol brands/products must be prevented?

That's a tall order. Humans really like status symbols, not only as proof of status but as reminders of status.

Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#118

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

alexvoda wrote: post #117
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is probably more than one cause, but consider the headphone jack one. Apple decided it wanted to get rid of it. Reasons were that they could make regular headphones less convenient (needs dongle) while simultaneously convincing people that air pods are the thing to have. They didn't have to market 'against' the headphone jack, only add friction to use it (via dongle) while heavily marketing 'for' air pods. Noki…

I agree with your analysis and it matches my thoughts. But then, wouldn't a naive conclusion be that in order to maintain the freedom of the market, the appearance of status symbol brands/products must be prevented? That's a tall order. Humans really like status symbols, not only as proof of status but as reminders of status.

> Humans really like status symbols

I think this is HUGE understatement. Humans are all about status (speaking in general terms, of course there will be individual exceptions). Status means access to scarce resources, status means choice of mates, status is everything. People will optimize for status ahead of nearly everything else and in a way this is rational because with status can come anything else they may want or need.

Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#119

Post by ryanwaggoner »

powerbroker wrote: post #75

I've driven the Model S for 13 months. Initially I was very apprehensive. But here is how my thinking has progressed: 1. 30 days prior to acquiring the car, I solely drove with hands on 3-and-9 in my conventional car; 2. First 30 days of driving, I practiced the turn signals and and horn at random parts of my drive to develop muscle memory; 3. First 6 months, I fully adapted to the 3-and-9 handling. I had 'button mis…

That’s a new selling point: if you’re an experienced pilot, you can probably learn to drive our car in a mere six months!

Re: Tesla finally breaks and offers round steering wheel on Model S/X

#120

Post by taylodl »

heavyset_go wrote: post #23
jdminhbg wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> aka not a whole lot Lord grant me a business worth $400B, aka not a whole lot.

It's still got a way to go until it reaches a sane valuation, and the stock is still falling.

Tesla's average transaction was $65K in 2022. There were 1.3 million transactions. That's $84.5B in transactions. Companies are typically valued at 7x their transactions which would be $591.5B - which we'll just call $600B. If Tesla is currently valued at $400B then they're undervalued by 33% and that would put Tesla at a BUY.

These are all back-of-the-napkin calculations and assumes Tesla will sell as many cars in 2023 as they did in 2022 and in fact will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I'm not an automotive industry expert but I don't see any reason why Tesla wouldn't. I think part of the reason Tesla's stock pulled back so much in 2022 is the realization that Tesla may not have that much GROWTH left.

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