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Men Without Work (2016)

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391–400 of 471 posts

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#391
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note, it's not a utopia - just better, not perfect. It's a refactor. An iteration on the existing system. > when say you envision the workers as the owners, how exactly does one change jobs then? Would I be forced to sell my ownership any/every time I wanted to leave a job? Open question. I think there are a couple of ways you could explore implementing this. One would be through ownership similar to what you describ…

> Another approach would be to consider businesses as institutions to be governed, rather than property to be owned. In this case, no one owns the business. This is probably the quickest way possible to ensure no new businesses are created, ever. There would be no incentive, and if the government has proven anything it's that it is the least efficient institution ever created. > The cooperative would have to maintain…

> Indeed, and now we know why they're not significant enterprises in any way.

This is just factually incorrect. Mondragon has 80k employees and 12 billion euros in revenue. Equal Exchange has 120 employees, $70 million in revenue and national scale distribution. There are absolutely worker cooperates successfully competing at scale.

They do have trouble getting financing in a Capitalist economy, but they would not be an issue in an economy based on them.

Personally, I think I think one worker one vote and strong social security is the resolution to the question posed above.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#392
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were in Mariupol, or Bakhmut, or Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Stalingrad, it sure didn't matter if you were a civilian or not. And hell, all of Eastern Europe during WW2, it barely mattered. When it did, that might mean 'just' getting shot and pushed into a ditch instead of shot and left on the battlefield. And the reason that societies don't just let folks leave is because the whole is stronger than the parts -…

> If you were in Mariupol, or Bakhmut, or Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Stalingrad, it sure didn't matter if you were a civilian or not. And hell, all of Eastern Europe during WW2, it barely mattered. When it did, that might mean 'just' getting shot and pushed into a ditch instead of shot and left on the battlefield. Yes, I know, that's why I'd pack and leave... I don't want to live in "a society" that expects me to die…

You state a case for the tragedy of the commons. If everyone was like you there would be no society and nowhere safe.

Effectively you behave like the billionaires of the world today. They have enough money to run away from whatever problems they create and therefore care little about preventing them in the first place.

You have no skin in the game.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow build a better human and all that. Eugenics all over again. Are you serious or is this sarcasm?

I don't know why, but the word 'eugenics' is enough to trigger a thought-terminating cliché. Maybe the GP was being tongue-in-cheek, maybe not, but it's always a strong reaction to this word. I understand it was used as an excuse to justify genocide, but I don't understand why the concept of eugenics is viewed as profoundly immoral by itself. I get that it's a slippery slope, and that's a valid reason to ban it, but…

If the history of the world has taught us anything, it's that any philosophical argument that justifies taking action to "improve" people is inherently dangerous. Eventually such ideas take political form.

I can't think of a single example from history where such philosophies weren't eventually used to justify horrible actions.

Transhumanism is great if your transhuman. Nazism was great for the Nazis. I don't see much of a difference between the two for the rest of us.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#394
post #326
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until one of them walks into your grocery store or your child's classroom and unloads a few clips out of his AR-15, I would hazard to guess. That's the more extreme outcome, of course. You also have, "heavily influencing a subculture that stews in a semi-justified atmosphere of victimization until mass media figures out how commodify it, and you wake up a decade later to find that pop culture has become dominated by…

I think it's personal choice and in many cases a rational one. Men who don't want to start families and have no particular ambition really have no reason to work.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. (That said, it's one that you didn't bother to support, so I'll just tap my previous reply and be on my way.)

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#395
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm for sure not criticizing Social Darwinism, just making an observation that those forces are at work here and will eventually judge the fitness of the cultural changes we're making. I do think that the western version of extreme individualism and sexual liberation has led to a fracturing of our American/western family structure. Combined with great abundance which has enabled us to transition from a culture that p…

I have to say I really appreciate you taking the time to put all these thoughts down into words. As a father it captures a lot of what I'm feeling these days. People are quick to attach moralistic judgments onto facts and statistics, but all I care about is what kind of society my kids will grow up in and how I can help them have good lives. Our society does not seem to be incentivizing good behavior or rewarding peo…

I feel for you brother.

For your kids to be successful, their life strategies have to take into account the environment they're living in. Basic game theory stuff. Play chess, not checkers.

The world I was hoping my kids would live in no longer exists, and so those old strategies no longer work. In fact, they put you at a disadvantage. This is why people who "play by the rules" feel left out, disenfranchised, whatever.

So, in a world where "bad behavior" gets you ahead, how can one live a good life? And by good I don't mean materially good, but ethically/morally good (which I think is a foundation from which other good things follow). Used to be that prosperity and ethics/morals were more correlated, today not so much. I'd like my children to be prosperous enough to take care of themselves and their families, while also contributing to their communities and fellow citizens (kindness to others, and kindness shown in return). That's a hard prescription to fill these days.

So, what strategies can you use in today's environment to maximize your children's chance of building/living in that world?

I don't have the answers, but this is the best I've come up with so far and is working for me.

- Be kind to others first, in order to quickly determine what kind of person you're dealing with. It serves as a litmus test, trust but verify, etc. If they're decent people they'll show kindness in return. If they don't, then best you find out quickly. At that point you don't owe them kindness, as this is a person that doesn't share the same social contract that you do. Protect yourself from these people as you would protect yourself from an enemy (I said protect, not attack). Continue to show kindness, but on your terms. Cut ties and move on quickly when necessary. Do not lose sleep over people like this, as you are simply a means to an end for them. I tell my kids when you meet people like this do your best to stay out of their way, but don't be afraid to confront when they continue to walk into your crosshairs. It's you or them at that point, and all bets are off.

- When you find good people, double down on them. Cut the others out of your personal life, and quickly. This rule also applies to your job. If you're not working for the right kind of people, try to move on as fast as possible. There are good employers out there.

- Keep your head down and weather the storm. Bad times come and go. Good times return.

- Keep your your mouth closed. Your personal politics are not welcome in the public sphere any longer. Wrongthinking is punished. The more you reveal the more can be weaponized against you. This includes nearly all of day to day social media. I'm breaching my code posting personal stuff here, but this is about the best forum I've found online for honest dialog.

- Focus on the small things you can control, don't fret about how your neighbors are living their lives. Appreciate the small joys that your small circle brings to you.

- Understand that what you see in the media is a very warped distortion of reality. The media is a spectacle, it does not represent what 99% of day to day life is about. This includes all of social media. Ground yourself by looking outside your window. It's not that bad out there.

- Have confidence and believe in the kind of life you are building around you. Don't let the naysayers tear you down. The modern world is powered by FOMO and doubt. Do not allow these attitudes to take root in your life.

- You have power over your life and small circle. Do not be afraid to use it.

- Through it all, kindness and grace for others whenever possible.

Best of luck to you and your family.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#396
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they decided to check out en-masse They are literally forbidden to leave the country (only men, 18-60yo, with some exceptions [0]). It's not men choosing not to check-out, it's literally men being forced to die for a piece of land they might not even care for. [0] https://visitukraine.today/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-ca...

It is society trying to protect and sustain itself. And frankly, what other options are there?

That logic also can go towards the breeding machine side for a population in decline. If men can be drafted to die for the country, can women be drafted to grow it?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#397
post #384
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they need physically strong folks able to fight in subzero temperatures while carrying heavy equipment, willing to run into enemy fire to save their friends or family despite extreme danger to themselves, with familiarity and ability to live in harsh outdoor conditions (or even enjoy it), and with a willingness to bayonet, shoot, or explode a stranger to death because of the uniform they are wearing (with a m…

I don't know, I've been told anything a man can do, a woman can do - often better. Also, I dont know if we can use "willing" when talking about people who are forced to do it.

I’ve gone some unusual places, and been lucky enough to meet some very interesting and unusual people - many of them women. One of them is currently a full bird Colonel in the army, another is one of the strongest and fearless big wall climbers I’ve ever seen.

Are there women out there who could best your average man, or even an exceptional man in any of the areas I listed?

You bet.

But there aren’t enough of them to make an army. They’re outliers. And frankly, each of them had to sacrifice so much of what most women value to be that, and have such painful circumstances behind why they chose that path, that it isn’t surprising that is the case to me. And physically, each of them has had to struggle far more than their male compatriots to do it, because there are differences.

As to willingness or not - just because someone is drafted, doesn’t mean they won’t own their circumstances and do what needs to be done for the better outcome, even if they don’t like that they are there, or wish they were somewhere else.

Frankly, unless you’ve been called upon to do that, you’ll never know if you have that in you. Not everyone does.

But running away from it doesn’t help either.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#398
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you were in Mariupol, or Bakhmut, or Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Stalingrad, it sure didn't matter if you were a civilian or not. And hell, all of Eastern Europe during WW2, it barely mattered. When it did, that might mean 'just' getting shot and pushed into a ditch instead of shot and left on the battlefield. Yes, I know, that's why I'd pack and leave... I don't want to live in "a society" that expects me to die…

You state a case for the tragedy of the commons. If everyone was like you there would be no society and nowhere safe. Effectively you behave like the billionaires of the world today. They have enough money to run away from whatever problems they create and therefore care little about preventing them in the first place. You have no skin in the game.

So I should die because those billionaires are in a dick measuring contest?

The war in ukraine is a proxy war between nato and direct for russia. Some random Vlad and Boris have had nothing to do with it, didn't start it but now have to die, so that elenski, ursula, macron and biden on one side and putin, xi, whoever the iranian leader is on the other side measure their dicks.

Sorry, but not sorry, fuck them.

If they want to start wars.. sure, but if more people were like me and not like you (who I guess is also not in a battlefield but being a smartass behind a keyboard), the battlefields would be empty, and the only way for a battle to be won would be with putin riding a bear, biden in an old peugeot and biden eating icecream.

You are free to die for whatever you deem necessary... I don't need to die for politics and want a way out, even if that means leaving everything behind and going away.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist i…

Do you think this is a social change or a change in the reality of workers leverage? You seem to be implying that corporations used to give people jobs because it was the right thing to do, but now they are more selfish. I think laborers just don't have much leverage anymore. Domestic workers losing leverage isn't a huge surprise given that the last 30 years have been about globalization.

Insofar as there is a cultural element, I'd say companies used to take more risk on average, at least at the individual worker level. My sense is having an extra pair of hands to help used to be seen as an opportunity, now every single pair of hands must have a concrete, justified purpose before they even get an interview.

Bean-counting and cost cutting has always been present in business, but, likely due to the rise of modern computing and metrics/data gathering capabilities, it seems to have been taken to an unproductive extreme.

Of course that's only the social component. Globalization and the hollowing out of labor unions (at least in the US) have also certainly contributed.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely don't look to the mental health system for help. It's designed from the ground up to use people like resources, mine them for all their value, and discard them (after some insults). I really feel for people with mental health issues and no insurance. I have insurance, but have somehow still payed thousands of dollars out of pocket, and in far worse shape. It's like they're TRYING to get people with ADHD to…

> It's like they're TRYING to get people with ADHD to kill themselves. You're raging against the wrong machine. By rights, ADHD should not exist. The amount of task-switching humans are expected to do in demonstrating mastery of the domains of entire departments is inhuman and unsustainable to begin with. We're pumping the population so full of amphetamines to keep up that we've literally run out of them. Medicine ca…

Sorry, but much of this is pop culture nonsense. ADHD has a cluster of symptoms that are extremely disruptive to a large range of activities. Taking reasonable, low doses of stimulant medication can change how the brain functions and make day to day activities more tolerable.

I don't know how you square your ideology with the fact ADHD people often struggle with day to day activities, eg. chores. So unless you think man was meant to have a women at home (I guess you could generalize to "caretaker"), I have no clue what you're talking about. Even if you solve this problem that doesn't explain the many other areas ADHD people struggle, like with basic socializing.

There's a place for critiques of our culture and work environments. However, ADHD certainly exists and needs treatment, even in a more ideal world... they had these problems in "fishing times" or whatever, they just called it madness, or figured you were a horrible person.

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