Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Men Without Work (2016)

time.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 471 posts

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#61

Post by ZGDUwpqEWpUZ »

afavour wrote: post #49
ZGDUwpqEWpUZ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, what you're saying is complete nonsense. Feminists spend much more time lying about men's issues than they do attempting to meaningfully rectify them. Even a simple statement like "boys are falling behind in education" can get you implicated as a misogynist. Here's a lovely pull-quote from a recent report, The State of UK Boys: > There's often an underlying assumption that boys should be attaining h…

> Feminists spend much more time lying about men's issues Not sure if there’s a name for this fallacy but you see it all the time: attributing the opinions/actions of an extreme minority to a whole group. No denying there are some feminists about there spending all their time lying about men’s issues but feminists as a whole don’t. Same applies almost every time someone says “leftists”, “the right wing” etc etc etc

To be clear, you believe the Global Boyhood Initiative, who published that report, are an extreme minority, and are accusing me of a fallacy because of that?

Fascinating. This is exactly the sort of half-baked lie I was talking about.

Edit: At some point, rubber has to meet road. Either you accept that boys falling behind in education is an issue, or you don't. If you don't accept it as an issue, then you cannot simultaneously claim to be the ones solving it.

Some of those solutions are not easy. It's been known for decades that boys get lower grades in school, and not always for the quality of their work. In the UK we saw girls suddenly shoot past boys in maths results when exams were cancelled for COVID and teacher-assessed grades were given instead. What's the feminist solution for that?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#62

Post by wheelerof4te »

First world problems.

When they don't exist, you invent them.

EDIT: Young people who can work but don't surely have a reason why they don't work.

Some are happy just freeloading and enjoying life on someone else's expense (often their parents). Others have a solid income on the side, just doing freelance stuff.

There are also those who have saved some money while working part-time. Now they just want to live their life before comitting to full time work.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#63

Post by isthisthingon99 »

javajosh wrote: post #13
afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

The fact that you need to apologize and explain why you care about issues that might affect men is telling in and of itself. The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm a pretty hardcore liberal and I I'm totally astonished on a daily basis at the hate in vitriol directed at men that go without comment, let alone castigation…

I had the same reaction to his first sentence. Why do you need to say that?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#64

Post by gjsman-1000 »

afavour wrote: post #49
ZGDUwpqEWpUZ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, what you're saying is complete nonsense. Feminists spend much more time lying about men's issues than they do attempting to meaningfully rectify them. Even a simple statement like "boys are falling behind in education" can get you implicated as a misogynist. Here's a lovely pull-quote from a recent report, The State of UK Boys: > There's often an underlying assumption that boys should be attaining h…

> Feminists spend much more time lying about men's issues Not sure if there’s a name for this fallacy but you see it all the time: attributing the opinions/actions of an extreme minority to a whole group. No denying there are some feminists about there spending all their time lying about men’s issues but feminists as a whole don’t. Same applies almost every time someone says “leftists”, “the right wing” etc etc etc

What do you call the fallacy, which I have seen increasingly online, where someone defines something as being an "extreme minority" when it actually isn't, and then claims the other person committed a fallacy because of that?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#65

Post by nsxwolf »

afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

I get the "are you babysitting today" whenever I take the kids to the grocery store, but only from women. If men say anything, it's usually a joke about a vasectomy. I find both off-putting, but the "babysitting" thing really is odd. It's Saturday! We're buying groceries!

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#66

Post by freshpots »

beyond_based wrote: post #43
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this exact experience as well. Returning to my career was strange. People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation. Women are increasingly treated this way too though. Women were shunned for choosing their career. Now if they choose family, their career still suffer…

[flagged]

Is this a serious reply? Do you believe what you said here?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#67

Post by ponow »

hollywood_court wrote: post #36
afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

Being a stay at home parent is certainly a lot of work. I did it for a while until my son started pre-k. However his school follows the schedule of the local university so it’s just been he and I for the past 3 weeks during the holidays and for 2 weeks recently before that during Thanksgiving break. We quickly fell back into our same routine of taking walks and working on his reading and writing. But I am definitely…

I barely talked to any of them after some of these exchanges. I refuse to explain myself.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#68

Post by Mezzie »

ianai wrote: post #2

In lieu of any particular review I’m submitting the Wikipedia page. I was unemployed for most of the Great Recession and can empathize with much of this book. I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Despite a math degree and IT/programming experience. Then the myriad people I’ve interacted with in the last decade plus who are in this situation. Luckily I no…

> I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me.

Female, but same hat and I empathize. In my case, I'm a lesbian who ended up with MS, so like with your average straight guy, my worth in society is pretty much based on my work life/career. I also share the jealousy a lot of straight men have for straight/bi women being more able to 'opt out'. It's not a rational feeling, but it's there.

> But I fear a society that leaves so many cold.

Me too. We can only expect people to beat themselves up for so long before some of that rage and despair is turned outward, contributing to the destabilization of society.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#69

Post by scottLobster »

ianai wrote: post #2

In lieu of any particular review I’m submitting the Wikipedia page. I was unemployed for most of the Great Recession and can empathize with much of this book. I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Despite a math degree and IT/programming experience. Then the myriad people I’ve interacted with in the last decade plus who are in this situation. Luckily I no…

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do".

Now the zeitgeist in the job market seems to be "Why should we give you the gift of this job? Speak quickly and well, lest we cast you back into the void! You are a piece of shit until proven otherwise!"

Granted some of that was always around for more competitive jobs, and some fields like engineering seem relatively exempt (outside of FAANG-style interviews) due to demand, but given what I was taught to expect growing up by schools/parents vs what reality turned out to be, there's definitely been a shift.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#70

Post by giantg2 »

blahblah1234567 wrote: post #53

I think "Men Without Work" is a euphemism. The problem is: - Men without Skills in-demand-- skills which are at least somewhat fulfilling & interesting to those men. Solution: Research labor data for careers in high demand, then cross reference those careers with skills a person is interested in. Then identify resources & a roadmap for learning those skills. And sit down, and put the time in to learn & apply those sk…

There's also a third, or subset under your refuse to work category. Some people who check out do so because the system is stacked against them. These could be people with criminal records, health issues, etc. Good luck getting a good job if you have any sort of record, mental illness, etc. Even stuff like delinquent child support can prevent your hiring. How about that - can't pay your support because you don't have a job, can't get a job because you're behind on your support...
Post reply on HN