Men Without Work (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#281

Post by lordfrito » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 10:52 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #265

fxtentacle wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practi…

What about 2 income household means the man doesn’t also need to contribute enough? In my experience, the man losing the job almost always ends in divorce and a bitter woman too (and mandatory child support payments on the man). It’s a really common pattern.

Yup. We can pat ourselves on the back about changing gender roles, but the fact remains that when a man loses his job his chance of divorce goes way up. [1]

Personally I think trying to reprogram humans to fight biology is a lost cause. But people keep trying.

[1] https://time.com/4425061/unemployment-divorce-men-women/

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#282

Post by vinyl7 » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 10:57 PM UTC

epups wrote: post #262

lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is no…

The problem is with basic male-female relationship dynamics within the concept of marriage/family. Women are attracted to wealth and status, men are attracted to appearances. Now that women can build a career equal to men, not only do they find those men unattractive...they really have no need for a man, aside from procreation. With how expensive everything is getting, and requiring both couples to work full time careers just to be able afford a home, its just not manageable to bring children into the picture for most people. Forget about day care which costs $1500 a month.

What we're seeing and will see more of is demographic changes similar to china where there are more elderly people and not enough young people to take over and care for the elderly.

Beyond demographic changes, there is something behind men needing a family to take care of that makes him have worth and gives him something to keep working for. Being a career slave for nothing is probably a big part of the suicide rate among men

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#283

Post by lordfrito » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 11:01 PM UTC

epups wrote: post #262

lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is no…

Yeah listen I wasn't blaming feminism, it was more of an open question or alternate perspective on the matter. There is a difference between causation and correlation. Just sharing one man's perspective, which is all I have really. Which I thought I made clear, but this is online discourse so I guess I need to clarify.

I could list 100 things I've experienced as a young man that led me to my conclusions, but I'm not here to win an argument. I don't have the answers. It's the questions that matter. I'm just trying to contribute perspective to the conversation.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#284

Post by ajsnigrutin » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 11:01 PM UTC

vagrantJin wrote: post #227

lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I think most societies throughout history have had the same intuition about young men. Quite recently the Ukraine was drafting young men. If they decided to check out en-masse, there would be no country called Ukraine anymore. Society is a fragile thing.

> If they decided to check out en-masse

They are literally forbidden to leave the country (only men, 18-60yo, with some exceptions [0]).

It's not men choosing not to check-out, it's literally men being forced to die for a piece of land they might not even care for.

[0] https://visitukraine.today/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-ca...

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#285

Post by drc500free » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 11:03 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #77

adversaryIdiot wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

man I am so happy i heard someone else say it too. I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". Not being able to find a job and getting no matches on things like tinder left me devastated. I am on anti depressants and fear that time to this day.

> I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however). I think you become truly actualized only when you decide what it is you want, what you imagine for yourself. If what you want is in conflict with what society wants of you, you have to decide then whether it is important enough to you to take…

I found this video, "Edgelord Movies and the Men who Love Them " [1] by sociologist F.D Signifier, to be a particularly interesting exploration of this specific disappointment. His thesis is that young white men are more attracted to edgelord movies like Joker, Falling Down, American Psycho, or Fight Club that portray a sudden violent break from social norms because they start with an elevated expectation of how society will cater to them that gets shattered one day. The idea of a protagonist that lashes out and punishes "the system" through stochastic violence is very attractive.

Young non-white men are less likely to be under the impression that society is looking out for them in the first place, so their choice of anti-social entertainment looks very different. It's more about detachment and the use of violence for personal enrichment because the social system doesn't matter.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--JOjsTHjo&t=361s

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#286

Post by lazide » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 11:05 PM UTC

ithkuil wrote: post #266

epups wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is no…

I agree that shouldn't be a zero sum game. Yet, there are undoubtedly forces at play it that cause a significant fraction of men to feel disfranchised. We can blame that to reactionary forces, to the last blows of patriarchy, but ultimately it's a real issue and unless we find a way to communicate across the ever deeper chasm the situation can only get more serious.

Japan and NEET culture seems like a useful, extreme, example.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#287

Post by lazide » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 11:06 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #284

vagrantJin wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most societies throughout history have had the same intuition about young men. Quite recently the Ukraine was drafting young men. If they decided to check out en-masse, there would be no country called Ukraine anymore. Society is a fragile thing.

> If they decided to check out en-masse They are literally forbidden to leave the country (only men, 18-60yo, with some exceptions [0]). It's not men choosing not to check-out, it's literally men being forced to die for a piece of land they might not even care for. [0] https://visitukraine.today/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-ca...

It is society trying to protect and sustain itself. And frankly, what other options are there?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#288

Post by ajsnigrutin » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 11:13 PM UTC

scottLobster wrote: post #69

ianai wrote: post #2

In lieu of any particular review I’m submitting the Wikipedia page. I was unemployed for most of the Great Recession and can empathize with much of this book. I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Despite a math degree and IT/programming experience. Then the myriad people I’ve interacted with in the last decade plus who are in this situation. Luckily I no…

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist i…

> Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do".

This might be a local thing, but here (central europe, balkans), there are currently enough jobs for basically anyone, even shitty jobs for really uneducated and slightly incompetent people and up to great jobs.

The problem I see most is housing... "society" expects you to get a job, get a wife, settle down, make 1, 2, 3 kids, have a dog etc. You've got a good enough job, average pay... want to move out? Still expect half (or even more) of the paycheck to go for rent. Want to buy a nice three bedroom apartment in the capital (nothing luxurious, just something normal, in a socialist apartment building, a few kilometers outside of city center)? That'll be 250-300 monthly paychecks. The boomers got their apartments or built their houses during socialist times, and now we have an extreme case of NIMBYism everywhere, even rural areas.

This means that a lot of young people stay at home... and if you're at home, you have a room, a bed and food... why bother working more than bare minimum (to cover entertainment costs, parties, drugs,...) if it's almost impossible to move out and still live normally.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#289

Post by lordfrito » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 11:21 PM UTC

vinyl7 wrote: post #282

epups wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is no…

The problem is with basic male-female relationship dynamics within the concept of marriage/family. Women are attracted to wealth and status, men are attracted to appearances. Now that women can build a career equal to men, not only do they find those men unattractive...they really have no need for a man, aside from procreation. With how expensive everything is getting, and requiring both couples to work full time car…

> Women are attracted to wealth and status, men are attracted to appearances

I will say this, before a certain point in my life I figured we were purely products of nurture. I tried to change values/motivations that I was biologically programmed with. When you're young you listen to the various voices all around you.

Things didn't really work out until I began to realize that there's a lot of nature in us, and that can't be changed. We have to accept it and move on. I was fighting myself for the longest time and didn't know it. I thought I was trying to change the world, but really I was just refusing to accept myself.

I no longer apologize for what I am, and I no longer try to change my partner. I try to be a kindler, gentler version of myself. More grace for myself, more grace for others.

We are what we are. Life got a lot a easier once I accepted that.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#290

Post by ajsnigrutin » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 11:22 PM UTC

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #24

afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

I had this exact experience as well. Returning to my career was strange. People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation. Women are increasingly treated this way too though. Women were shunned for choosing their career. Now if they choose family, their career still suffer…

This could somewhat be solved by regulation

You get around 1 year of parental leave here in my country - it starts 28 days before expected birth for the mother and lasts for 105 days, the father also gets 30 days, but 15 have to be used during the parental leave, and the other 15 in the next few years. After the 105 days of "mothers leave" are over, both parents get 260 days to divide between themselves however they want).

The norm is for the mother to take the full 260 days, and the father goes to work. On one hand, fathers complain because they're not with their kids, on the other side, usually feminists complain about women losing a year of their carrers (because women still have a choice to go to work and let the dad use those 260 days), and hiring a could-be-soon-pregnant woman is a risk, because she might be gone for a year.

If we atleast split the 260 evenly, and made it mandatory for both parents to be atleast a bit more equally absent from work, that would solve a lot... but since women would lose the 260 day, and there's no money for both parents to be absent from work, this won't ever be implemented.