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Men Without Work (2016)

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261–270 of 471 posts

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#261
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be aware, that then opens you up to being directly attacked by, and not just ignored, by society. And society has lots of fangs, in that sense.

That's merely a practical consideration. Besides, the difference between "ignored" and "directly attacked by" is mostly rhetorical when your psychological or physiological needs are unmet.

Hah, ‘merely practical’ is high praise for a concern IMO?

It does matter. Plenty of subcultures have done stuff that is technically illegal, or at least could be prosecuted/or would be made illegal if noticed, but was quite beneficial to them in their own view, by not getting enough attention to be worth directly attacking! Or having folks be distracted enough elsewhere to not go after them.

I’m guessing most in the LGBTQ space can pretty clearly identify the difference between the two, for instance. Being accepted being even nicer than both, of course. Catered to almost unheard of!

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#262

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life?

The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is not only a win for feminism, it is a win for humanity. Civilization has historically been built by men, as you say, because we used to believe that women were incapable of contributing equally. A big mistake, and a huge waste of potential talent.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#263
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worker cooperatives exist and are perfectly functional and successful. Which means one economic system that isn't often spoken about might be described as "Free Market Socialism", in which businesses are governed democratically by their workers in a free market. Yes, in capitalism. We have worker coops, there is absolutely nothing in capitalism that prevents or restricts them.

Right, the fact that they are successful in Capitalism presents the possibility of building the entire economy around them. It would be a free market of independent businesses, but those businesses would be governed by the workers involved in them. Financing would happen through loans and crowdfunding, rather than equity. This economic system wouldn't be Capitalism, but it would be a Free Market. It would involve "so…

What would be the advantage of removing sole proprietorships, partnerships etc though? If worker coops are already one existing type of business in a capitalist system, why would we limit ourselves to just that type and remove others?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I must be living under a rock then — this Zeitgeist you talk of is alien to me. I am a male who does not feel in any way dehumanized, nor have any of my male friends expressed as much.

Good for you! I've never noticed this thing so it doesn't exist. Pure and simple internalized misandry.

Doesn't exist.

Zeitgeist.

There's a pretty broad strata between those two.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#265

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practi…

What about 2 income household means the man doesn’t also need to contribute enough?

In my experience, the man losing the job almost always ends in divorce and a bitter woman too (and mandatory child support payments on the man).

It’s a really common pattern.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#266
post #262

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is no…

I agree that shouldn't be a zero sum game.

Yet, there are undoubtedly forces at play it that cause a significant fraction of men to feel disfranchised. We can blame that to reactionary forces, to the last blows of patriarchy, but ultimately it's a real issue and unless we find a way to communicate across the ever deeper chasm the situation can only get more serious.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#267

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practi…

To address a different point here - up until the 70’s, the US had and regularly used the draft.

Most countries have mandatory military service for all males that starts anywhere from 16-18yrs old.

Pretty much everywhere except some specific parts of the US (and still even then, though it’s not stated out loud), it’s expected for a man to get and hold a decent job, or women will ignore him and everyone will look down on him. Does it always, 100% apply? No. It’s definitely the majority case though.

Does that mean men were abandoned? I don’t think so.

Honestly, it seems more like men were a resource. Just like everyone else.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a basic human need to be valued by others and to be part of a community, and the system we have now grades people according to traits that are mainly genetic and casts them aside if they aren't seen as desirable enough. As for what the cut is, well, it's many-faceted, but the waterline is rising and as you age all of your desirable traits are fading. If you have real personal relationships (either career or f…

I agree, but there are communities within the larger community. If you're into D&D you can fit comfortably within a like-community of RPGamers. And I can't help but think back to the punks, or goths or any of the other disenfranchised youth cultures that appeared to revel even in the rejection from broader society. "The children they despise us, the difference is now we want to be hated."

It's funny to think of a future where the rising difficulty of surviving in mainstream culture for anyone who's not a movie star eventually results in a society evenly split between punks and goths, but something tells me that's not a real solution. :-)

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#270

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism?

I understand this is a passing remark, but I want to answer the question anyway.

Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men.

Men supporting and helping other men benefits feminism and women by challenging traditional gender roles and expectations. In a lot of countries, the cultural norm is for men to be strong, independent and self-sufficient and not to seek help or support from others, especially other men. This creates a culture of toxic masculinity (not all masculinity is toxic, only the toxic kind is problematic). In such a culture men are expected to repress their feelings, hide their vulnerability, and not seek support when they need it, etc. Often, women are expected to fit under the exact opposite (not being allowed to stand alone, expected to be vulnerable and emotional, etc.) as if we were sharing a limited pie and not the potentialy unlimited social world we live in. This is harmful to people of all gender.

Breaking down traditional gender roles and expectations and supporting and helping each other is good for everyone. This can also help reduce the stigma and shame that may be associated with men seeking help or support and encourage more men to seek the help and support they need. This in turn can help create a more equitable and just society for all, which is one of the main goals of feminism. I wish the men in my live all had the same kind of emotionally vulnerable relationships I have with the women in my life. I can't begin to imagine how hard and lonely it can be to live in a world that prevent you from connecting freely with others.

In my book, anything that makes life harder for men is a loss for feminism.

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