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Men Without Work (2016)

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Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#211

Post by 0xcde4c3db »

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #191
scottLobster wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist i…

That’s the case for the standard jobs that people with a business/english/history degree compete for. There’s so much supply of college grads. But, if you look at trade jobs (plumber, electrician, etc.) then there’s still tons of demand and they pay well. But no one wants to do that.

This almost certainly varies with the specific labor market, but what I've heard anecdotally is that there's tons of demand for experienced tradespeople, but the prospects being fresh out of school aren't great unless you have connections.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#212

Post by notwokeno »

TylerLives wrote: post #168
goldenchrome wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re NEETs. Likely live with their parents. May sell odd things here and there to make a buck. Likely invested in cryptos which until recently was enough to get by. Often getting some government gibs like unemployment or disability benefits. American society doesn’t know how to use low skilled men so we keep ‘em fed and put them to the side.

>American society doesn’t know how to use low skilled men What's the solution though? I can think of 3: 1) Bullshit jobs (i.e. fake jobs or real jobs that exist only to support fake jobs. This is the current answer) 2) Universal Basic Income - Doesn't solve the problem of giving people meaningful work, but gives them some freedom to discover/create their own solutions 3) Artificially making life more difficult - For…

There used to be places for them but they were replaced with immigrants, women, automation and outsourcing.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#213

Post by luckylion »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #77
adversaryIdiot wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

man I am so happy i heard someone else say it too. I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". Not being able to find a job and getting no matches on things like tinder left me devastated. I am on anti depressants and fear that time to this day.

> I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however). I think you become truly actualized only when you decide what it is you want, what you imagine for yourself. If what you want is in conflict with what society wants of you, you have to decide then whether it is important enough to you to take…

> I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you

It somewhat stops being a society if it says to some members "whether you live or die is irrelevant to me, I will not care either way". That's what some people experience at least some of the time.

There's a social contract. Is it still binding you if society doesn't hold up its end?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#214

Post by [deleted] »

ericmcer wrote: post #204
scottLobster wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist i…

Do you think this is a social change or a change in the reality of workers leverage? You seem to be implying that corporations used to give people jobs because it was the right thing to do, but now they are more selfish. I think laborers just don't have much leverage anymore. Domestic workers losing leverage isn't a huge surprise given that the last 30 years have been about globalization.

[deleted]

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#215

Post by lordfrito »

My 2c.

Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift.

I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help without being asked.

I'm 51 now, and I understand why more and more men are checking out. The grind isn't worth it. There's a reward system in play here, you grind at life and are rewarded. Grind in school and you graduate. Grind more and you get a degree. Grind more and you get a family and career and some big toys.

It seems that the amount of grinding men have to do is increasing, and the net rewards society bestows seem to be decreasing. I won't get into a shouting match on what the problems men experience are, you can fill in the blanks with your own experiences and biases, but all the men I know seem to agree that there seems to be less of an upside to sacrificing for the greater good than there used to be. As a middle aged man strangers I meet expect the worst from me, why should I try?

As an alternative you can spend your hours grinding away at video games and leveling up. And the games are getting better every year.

It seems to me that many young men are finding leveling up in games is simply more rewarding than leveling up in real life. I wish it weren't so, but here we are.

Historically speaking, civilization is built and defended largely on the backs of young men. When they check out, it can't be a net good for the trajectory of society.

Or maybe this is a win for feminism? Women finally have work equality and so men don't have to work as hard anymore.

I don't have answers. But the trend has been clear for a long while.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#216

Post by wpietri »

ZGDUwpqEWpUZ wrote: post #177
wpietri wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this just a nitpick on Tate in particular? That was a side note, and one I don't think you quite got, as I didn't say he was an MRA, just popular among the same sort of people. Which I think you'd have a hard time denying. And my point isn't that the men's rights people don't have legitimate points about how patriarchy also harms men. They do! My point is that for an awful lot of people, those points are a cloak f…

> just popular among the same sort of people. Which I think you'd have a hard time denying. I'd have a hard time denying it because I have no idea what that "sort of person" is even supposed to be. Is it just people you don't like? I went down the Men's Rights rabbithole because I got sexually assaulted by a woman as a teenager and didn't know how to deal with it. They were the only ones talking about it, and I assur…

> that "sort of person"

I have a hard time believing you can't figure this out on your own, but briefly, the manosphere.

As to the rest, I am truly sorry to hear about your sexual assault. But I'm also sorry that you, like so many of the "sort of person" I'm talking about, have turned a bad experience into a reason to bash feminism rather than a reason to fight things like rape culture. If even with your experience can't figure out why serial rape victims might murder their attackers and why somebody might be surprised that doesn't happen more, then I'm not sure how I can clear up my point for you.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#217

Post by hatefulmoron »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #77
adversaryIdiot wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

man I am so happy i heard someone else say it too. I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". Not being able to find a job and getting no matches on things like tinder left me devastated. I am on anti depressants and fear that time to this day.

> I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however). I think you become truly actualized only when you decide what it is you want, what you imagine for yourself. If what you want is in conflict with what society wants of you, you have to decide then whether it is important enough to you to take…

> I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you

I have grown to believe over time that this is true, and that most people are willing to throw away unsuccessful or unlucky others using this reasoning. It's depressing, but also frees you from feeling any particular obligation to society. If society doesn't either provide you with what you need or a means to achieve it, I recommend that you cheat, steal, tax-evade, and law-break as much as is personally beneficial.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#218

Post by unholythree »

microtherion wrote: post #119
nimbius wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a lot of this, at least in the united states, is due to a deep-seated dichotomy of heteronormative gender roles in suburban life. new mums groups have learned to be welcoming, but not inclusive to newcomers and that may largely be due to puritanical influences present in a lot of the cultures that oversee these groups. one could go so far as to say such patronisation and strict gender conformity serve to ostracize an…

I believe (and that's hardly an original observation) that some of the problems in the US trades based professions stem from their lack of non-academic credentials systems. In e.g. Germany or Switzerland, your pot smoking drill press operator could point to a four year apprenticeship, and possibly even advanced specializations beyond that, with hundreds of recognized professional tracks. In the US, professional skill…

That's less true in union work or licensed trades; but of course lots of trades are only licensed in specific localities or the licensing is loosely enforced.

There definitely is a emphasis in the U.S. on college being the "correct" path though. I recently saw a public charter school in my city advertise their entire graduating class was accepted into colleges. Clearly this was the best metric of success to them.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#219

Post by [deleted] »

plsbenice34 wrote: post #202
goldenchrome wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re NEETs. Likely live with their parents. May sell odd things here and there to make a buck. Likely invested in cryptos which until recently was enough to get by. Often getting some government gibs like unemployment or disability benefits. American society doesn’t know how to use low skilled men so we keep ‘em fed and put them to the side.

You say "low skilled" but many of them have university education. I do not think that is the problem at all

[deleted]

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#220

Post by yterdy »

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #191
scottLobster wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist i…

That’s the case for the standard jobs that people with a business/english/history degree compete for. There’s so much supply of college grads. But, if you look at trade jobs (plumber, electrician, etc.) then there’s still tons of demand and they pay well. But no one wants to do that.

From my perspective, trades are effectively gatekept (somewhat purposefully but also as a function of the business). It's a damned-if-you-do/don't situation with licensing headaches on one side, and the prevailing reliance on networks for finding both jobs and work on the other; the former a way to rein in the volatility of "vendor" availabilty and work quality caused by the latter, but with the side effect of raising the barrier to entry (and the cost of training for already wary bosses). "Trust" concerns on an encounter-to-encounter basis are too important for the robust market you would like. I've talked to two people who were looking for construction workers: one was a family friend who knows me well and was somewhat cool on me applying, especially after finding out the physical difficulties I'd had at a retail job that had turned out to be more demanding than I'd anticipated. The other was a stranger who freely gave out his number, but who implied that there'd likely be a soft hazing period to determine if I, unlike many other past applicants, "really wanted to work." $20/hr sounds great, but how much of that is going to future physical therapy? (I never texted back.)

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here, jobless, with an art degree (a few credits short of a sculpture minor), watching woodworking Youtube videos in my garage-less Millennial apartment. I tend to think enthusiasm is not really the issue.

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