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A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

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Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#51

Post by inthepipe »

gardenfelder wrote: post #23
consumer451 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it could be placebo effect, but the thinking is/was that: > Nightshade Vegetables > Eggplants, peppers, tomatoes and potatoes are all members of the nightshade family. These vegetables contain the chemical solanine, which some people claim aggravates arthritis pain and inflammation. However, most reports are anecdotal, and while it certainly might be true for some people, there are no scientific studies done to…

Here's a clustered search on nightshade and arthritis of pubmed https://search.carrot2.org/#/search/pubmed/Nightshade%20and%...

Interestingly, many of those studies are about the beneficial anti-arthritic impact of consuming Solanum nigrum. That kind of contradicts the “avoid nightshade” advice.

Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#52

Post by inthepipe »

austinjp wrote: post #29
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is an example of good inflammation?

Inflammation is a crucial part of the body's response to tissue damage, infection, foreign matter, and more. In response, the capillaries become more permeable. This allows white blood cells to leave the blood stream and enter the tissues to combat infection and destroy damaged tissue. The inflammatory response is part of a complex set of self-defense and repair mechanisms. Sometimes these go wrong, but without them…

Tissue damage, infection, foreign matter, etc are all bad. Inflation might help, but I think you’d need to show it’d be helpful without the presence of some worse thing to truly call it beneficial.

Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#53

Post by reilly3000 »

consumer451 wrote: post #6
GoToRO wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why tomatoes and potatoes?

Well, it could be placebo effect, but the thinking is/was that: > Nightshade Vegetables > Eggplants, peppers, tomatoes and potatoes are all members of the nightshade family. These vegetables contain the chemical solanine, which some people claim aggravates arthritis pain and inflammation. However, most reports are anecdotal, and while it certainly might be true for some people, there are no scientific studies done to…

Inflammation is a tricky one isn’t it? Its level is an emergent property of a lot of factors. You can see how one tissue behaves with the addition of one reagent, but it’s difficult if not impossible to establish cause in a living system. People often talk about the “bathtub” - stressors, allergens, toxins, low sleep, add water to the bathtub, and it drains at the rate it’s able. When there are too many things filling the bathtub at once it overflows, and that is where you start to experience the devastation of inflammation. For me it feels like sinus allergies and extreme fatigue. The only thing that is productive is making space for recovery. If you aren’t able to recuperate, then the inflammation will take over and do it for you. That ends up leading internal scars it’s so intense.

Christmas is one of those times where the bathtub is likely flooded. Peak commerce. Rushing to hit year end deadlines. Squeezing in medical appointments before deductibles reset. Dangerous winter conditions, but also everyone is traveling at the same time. Rampant spread of diseases. Massive amounts of food, especially sugars. Low sunlight. Family drama. Irregular schedule. Financial stress. I could go on.

If one doesn’t take care to do that things that make the bathtub drain faster (nutrition, activity, rest, water…) you risk big inflammation and internal scarring.

This year I asked my family: does anyone actually like surprises? There was unanimous agreement that we all hate it. This allowed some novel flexibility. I started giving gifts in early December, and only had a few on the official day. All of the sizes were figured out, returns processed, and cardboard broken down over 2 weeks. We ended up having 3 quiet Christmas parties with small family groups over 4 days. It was more manageable than the usual tornado. I’ve maintained my standard sleep schedule. It was still all a bit overwhelming, especially for my neurodivergent ass having to socialize 500% more than usual. My bathtub is getting pretty full. So I’m going to go take a bath :)

Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#54

Post by michaelmrose »

ralph84 wrote: post #39
michaelmrose wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. My wife suffers from this and its night and day different from osteoarthritis and my wife who has has been offered plenty of ridiculous "cures" that people somehow believe highly paid specialists just haven't though of.

Sorry your wife suffers from this. I just wouldn't be so confident that highly paid specialists have time to keep up on the latest research in their field. In my experience most do not. They're highly paid because they see a lot of patients, not because they read a lot of research.

A lot of medicine isn't latest research as standard of care isn't a fast moving target its just attention to detail.

Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#55

Post by objetovoador »

hammock wrote: post #17
objetovoador wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC inflammation is linked to endotoxins produced by bacteria in the gut. Apparently curcumin has a good reputation for helping people with inflammatory conditions like that. And it's been proposed that it yields positive benefits by modulating the gut rather than being bioactive (curcumin is famously not bioactive).

You’re being downvoted because it sounds like woo but the people downvoting aren’t up to speed on the latest science. Nightshades are tolerated by people with healthy guts and there is a smaller set of people with a gut dysfunction that means the solanine (alkaloids) in nightshades causes leaky gut syndrome leading to the inflammation you are talking about. Curcumin (turmeric) does alleviate this inflammation pretty…

[flagged]

Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#56

Post by boplicity »

ABCLAW wrote: post #37
boplicity wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are no scientific studies If this treatment could be turned into a drug that had billions of dollars in revenue, as some arthritis drugs have, then there would be endless studies. Sadly, that's not the world we live in. "Lack of studies" in many cases is code for "there's no money to be made here." This is too bad, because many extremely effective and effectively free treatments are ignored by scientists beca…

Lazy thinking. Governments that provide and purchase healthcare services are also in the business of funding research. In what world do we not see an alignment of interests for studies from nutritionists and dieticians on this topic? We have a LOT of studies on low fodmap diets and their health effects.

Unfortunately, this thinking came about through my direct experience as someone seeking treatment for a chronic disease. For the specific disease I have, there are endless studies about various drugs, and very, very few studies about non-drug treatments, many of which are known to be effective in the patient community, but lack enough "studies" to be part of the standard treatments recommended by doctors. Instead, we're offered drugs that cost $10,000+ per month. (Drugs which are backed by many, many studies, and yet are only around 25% effective after 2 years.)

Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#57

Post by objetovoador »

michaelmrose wrote: post #27
hammock wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more of a meta analysis in my mind of all the different studies and anecdotes I’ve osmoted over the years. As someone else said earlier, there aren’t great and clear individual studies because there isn’t any money in it. For dosing curcumin, you can try juicing a quarter inch of turmeric root a day and starting there, I have seen that knock out a lot of things within a short number of days

That isn't what a meta analysis is. I'm not trying to be cruel but people know all sorts of things that aren't true based on insufficient evidence and weak correlation. I did this thing and got that result is extremely powerful for an individual but without controlling for other factors its hard to know if they are assigning credit to an irrelevant factor or one that was more specific to their situation and not gener…

> That isn't what a meta analysis is. I'm not trying to be cruel[...]

That's why he didn't call it a meta-analysis but instead said "It’s more of a meta analysis in my mind of all the different studies and anecdotes I’ve osmoted over the years"

It'd be one thing if he said all those things as some sort of scientific fact, but he very clearly qualified his statements as hypothetical conclusions informed by surveying literature, reading developments and other things.

By saying "I'm not trying to be cruel" you seem to be at least aware that you're being pretty censorious. It seems misplaced to me.

Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#58

Post by jeremycarter »

user_7832 wrote: post #22
jeremycarter wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Important advice. As a person who has PVCs and PACs I would say avoid anything that isn't medical grade and advised by your cardiologist/specialist doctor.

Sorry, what’s PVC and PAC in this context?

PVCs and PACs are premature ventricular and atrial contractions. There is also some recent studies treating arrythmias with vegus nerve stimulation too that's why I'm saying youve really got to be careful.

Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#59

Post by BurningFrog »

ABCLAW wrote: post #37
boplicity wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are no scientific studies If this treatment could be turned into a drug that had billions of dollars in revenue, as some arthritis drugs have, then there would be endless studies. Sadly, that's not the world we live in. "Lack of studies" in many cases is code for "there's no money to be made here." This is too bad, because many extremely effective and effectively free treatments are ignored by scientists beca…

Lazy thinking. Governments that provide and purchase healthcare services are also in the business of funding research. In what world do we not see an alignment of interests for studies from nutritionists and dieticians on this topic? We have a LOT of studies on low fodmap diets and their health effects.

>Lazy thinking.

I'll pretend this insult wasn't here.

>Governments that provide and purchase healthcare services are also in the business of funding research.

Well, some research, but the $100M+ cost of studies to get anything approved as a medication is exclusive done by companies hoping to profit from selling it, AFAIK.

One effect of this system is that no one funds such studies for non patentable substances.

Re: A new treatment for arthritis: Vagus-nerve stimulation

#60

Post by galangalalgol »

michaelmrose wrote: post #54
ralph84 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry your wife suffers from this. I just wouldn't be so confident that highly paid specialists have time to keep up on the latest research in their field. In my experience most do not. They're highly paid because they see a lot of patients, not because they read a lot of research.

A lot of medicine isn't latest research as standard of care isn't a fast moving target its just attention to detail.

I'm not sure what you mean, but both a co-worker and a co-workers wife found that eliminating nightshades like the GP did, eliminated their need for medication as well. My wife has a different autoimmune disorder, and had good luck eliminating a different food. The autoimmune protocol is the name for the elimination regimen. There is actually a great deal of literature to back this up. But I believe diet doesn't enter standard of care quickly because of low compliance, among more cynical reasons. This is just anecdotal, but it isn't just subjective symptom descriptions either. These people quit meds while under a doctor's care because their antibody tests reduced dramatically on the diet.

Ruling out peppers, eggplants and tomatoes isn't fun, but it isn't even close to impossible. Imagine having immune responses to corn! Maybe it won't work, but it only takes about a month to evaluate.

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