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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#411

Post by jaclaz »

dotancohen wrote: post #406
pmontra wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everybody has a garage. Cities are full of parked cars in front of residential buildings. It did park my car in a street when I was living in a city. By 2035 those streets must be refitted with chargers, one per parking slot and somehow replace the energy distributed as gasoline and diesel with electrical energy. If that doesn't happen people will have to leave their car at a charging station for far more time th…

Does the street already have street lights? If so, then presumably there already is an electrical distribution network running alongside the street. If it was designed with sodium vapor lamps in mind, but has been upgraded to LEDs, then EV charging infrastructure is withing its capabilities.

Yes, the line was designed for 250W sodium vapour lamps, you replace them with 60W led lamps AND you use some 20% original overprovision and you can have 250x1.2-60=240W per post.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#412

Post by twblalock »

xyst wrote: post #207

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.…

Fix the cities first.

Fix the crime, and the pollution, and the noise.

Give people a way to live without constantly hearing their neighbors through the walls. Give people transit options where they don't need to fear for their physical safety. Give people a place to raise children without worrying about them picking up used needles on the street.

Give people space to be something other than interchangeable sardines in boxes in high-rise apartment buildings -- what about people who want to do woodworking, or welding, or work on cars, or hunt?

City live is only one of the valid lifestyles available to humans, and arguably it is the most unnatural, the most harmful, and the least tolerable. Change that before you call for the death of the lifestyles that other people enjoy. Otherwise, don't be surprised if "death to cities" is the response you get.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#413

Post by hef19898 »

vardump wrote: post #340
akmarinov wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

I think in Europe other than older buildings, garages have mostly 400V 3 phase. At least in northern parts, probably a lot worse in southern parts.

Land lines are 400 V 3 phase in Germany, as you need those for the elecrric ovens and that is what utilities deliver. Standard plugs and wiring are 240 V. So every garage would at least have 240 V, if there is a plug, and 400 V can be installed.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#414

Post by nottorp »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #404
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No new car sales, and PHEVs are included which should solve edge cases. That's very different than all cars. Also, most of CA doesn't get cold enough that any of this discussion is relevant.

PHEVs really seem like the best of both worlds. What's the downside?

Costs. Complexity. You have a large battery, a gasoline engine with a transmission and 2+ electric engines in a PHEV. And they all need maintenance in the long run.

This will be hopefully mitigated when all PHEVs only run the gas engine as a generator and get rid of the transmission, but I don't think we're there yet.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#415

Post by hef19898 »

msrenee wrote: post #377
jws wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

And then you're replacing the fuel filters when it's below 0 F out because they got destroyed by the gelled diesel. And then you learn your lesson and keep a bottle of Power Service on hand if it's going to get cold and it's never a problem again. It's literally as easy as having the right fuel additives on hand before it gets too cold. It's not even an infrastructure problem. I will say that you left out the most fu…

There is no winter diesel in the US?

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#416

Post by toyg »

Vecr wrote: post #301
acdha wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities but considering that cars spend 95% of the day parked and most people are not driving hundreds of miles per day, it seems likely that the combination of charging points at parking garages and similar structures, homes, streetlights, etc. is going to reach a level where most people can charge more than they need to. In fact, since solar has such massive daylig…

If someone actually believes in democracy, they should try to get politicians to agree with the statement "cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities" on the record. In the US, almost every single one would dodge the question or outright disagree. Even the ones not running for re-election don't want to ruin their and their party's reputation.

Believing in democracy as the least-worst way to set public policy has nothing to do with your own priorities.

I personally think urban development should be more expensive to cover its externalities (i.e. forcing people to buy cars because of landowner-enriching sprawl).

Get your politicians to call my politicians.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#417

Post by nottorp »

justsomehnguy wrote: post #190
Swenrekcah wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles. I’m curious about that recommendation, do you know why that is?

You need N joules to heat up the 300kg of the engine. It doesn't matter if you sit there for 15 minutes freezing your ass with an engine running at 1500rpm (and all other car parts still freezing) or 5 minutes actually driving at 3000rpm - you still spent N joules on heating, difference is the time. And the car heater runs on the engine heat, not on the electricity, so the sooner you would warm the engine the sooner…

It's possible you need to idle for 10 minutes just to scrape the ice off your windows though :)

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#418

Post by jaclaz »

murderfs wrote: post #182
kzrdude wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, is 220V (or 230V) more than twice as fast/twice as good as 110V? The discussion here makes it sound like it. All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally. I guess heat losses and other problems are significant, if it's a problem at 110V?

At the same amperage, it's exactly twice as good, but if you're going to get a 220V outlet installed, you're also going to get a higher amperage circuit installed at the same time, so you can charge at 220V/50A instead of 110V/12A, which is 8x faster.

But you need also the electric company to be able to deliver that power, roughly 10kW, in addition to all your other electric appliances.

Common contracts - at least here (Italy) - are for 3 or 4.5kW, a few are 6 kW, 10 kW or more are rare, and you probably need to get to 15kW to be able to have those 10kW available for charging.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#419

Post by Schnitz »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #302
Schnitz wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

I dont have 220 in the garage. Of course 220 is coming into the panel but there is no circuit breaker, wiring or outlet. In my experience this is common. 220 is only provided for washers, stoves, and HVAC. Can a 220 outlet be added, certainly, but it is not default.

That's my point though, you can add a 220v socket pretty cheaply given there's a panel.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#420

Post by refurb »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #396
cwalv wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

By 2035 people won't be driving car-shaped objects, not unless they're professional taxi drivers.

People will still be driving car-shaped objected until 2055.

People wildly overestimate advances. Look at how much has changed in the last 20 years. Not much.

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