The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter • Hacker News Board

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#291

Post by simfree » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:25 AM UTC

alphabettsy wrote: post #256

simfree wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Letting the car consume a small amount of constant electricity to keep the battery above freezing is thankfully not very expensive compared to a standard space heater (usually 1.5kW at 720 hours a month, costing $150 a month in Seattle). Defrosting and toasting the cabin to 92F in freezing conditions usually burns about 1.2kWh to 3kWh while plugged in, but that is just a few tens of cents (or free depending on the ch…

$150/mo just to keep it ready to drive? That doesn’t sound right.

No, I was trying to convey that it costs significantly less than keeping a space heater running 24/7 (which would cost about $150 a month at 14 cents per kilowatt hour).

$10 to $30 a month in power use to keep your battery toasty in the dead of winter isn't too bad a price IMO

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#292

Post by Lio » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:26 AM UTC

pastage wrote: post #156

scott_siskind wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds Huh? I've been cycling for 15 years, many of those years doing 15k km a year, all year round. Mountain biking on mountains at -15C, down to urban cycling in 38-40C scorching summer heat. I've never noticed speed, effort, stamina changing with temperature as you suggest. And I've done lots of road cycling at constant 35-40km/h, descents of up to 70+km/h.

I am not really contradicting you here. Just want clarification from GP. My reaction was Huh? As well. With N=15 years of gps data and 40-70 of those days per year below zero very few below -10°C. I can say that I ride slower on cold days on avarage. I am not fit and do not track that at all. I can barely keep my avarage above 25km/h in city traffic for 15km, very few conflict points maybe twenty but not comparable t…

I definitely ride slower in winter too but I always assumed that was due to my body having a harder time in the cold rather than air density changes.

That seems to be born out by using better (read more expensive) winter riding gear. I naturally run a bit cold so spending on low temperature tights, base layer and jersey/jacket has made a massive difference for me.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#293

Post by isityouyesitsme » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:31 AM UTC

EdwardDiego wrote: post #232

isityouyesitsme wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, 10 years behind EV. It makes sense that it is where it is. Please point out anywhere where anyone says the accomplishments are not remarkable on their own, if you are not comparing them to the thing with 100 years infra behind it. Now compare that to the seemingly endless number of evangelists who think that 10 years from now is a good time to impose a mandate to kill all new ICE vehicle manufacturing, in spite o…

Where does Person B live? In a hut in Siberia?

C'mon, you have to purposefully be this obtuse. There's no other way it can happen.

Literally any location in the northern US, especially the more rural and more dense urban, and doubly true if you make under 30k per household person and don't already have a circuit in your garage for an electric oven or electric clothes dryer. I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#294

Post by verdenti » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:33 AM UTC

cwalv wrote: post #116

jws wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

[dead]

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#295

Post by rtkwe » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:34 AM UTC

EdwardDiego wrote: post #282

rtkwe wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally no. Line drying has a connotation of poverty in the US and many cities have ordinances like this that make it tough to do. Also houses being generally larger and detached in the US we have an easier time installing them compared to row houses in Europe. They're also just built more recently so they have accommodations for them built in already. "No person shall place or allow to remain exposed to the elemen…

Oh wow. I did wonder why dryers were so frequently used in the US. Don't you have to worry about it shrinking clothing though?

I haven't had much trouble with that personally. Sometimes the first wash will shrink clothes slightly but afaik a lot of clothing manufacturers these days put clothes through a 'pre-shrinking' process that compacts them down simulating the shrinking process so they won't shrink appreciably.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#296

Post by Renevith » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:37 AM UTC

krater23 wrote: post #263

jws wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

>Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. I don't know where you live, but here in Germany my diesel car had no big problems with -19°C around 10 years ago. Biggest problem was heating the interior that the windows remain ice free during driving.…

Just yesterday I drove 75km in -22C, parked outside all day, then back home the same distance in -19C. Took my Model Y from 80% to 12%. No problem with heat either (that's part of why it used so much charge). I was a lot more worried about sliding off the road than running out of battery...

I believe you that it's no problem for a diesel. But it's no problem for electric either.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#297

Post by BirAdam » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:41 AM UTC

d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

The Wrangler 4XE has a temp controlled battery. Not sure about other vehicles, but it works.

TBH, I think mankind just needs better energy storage. Lithium ion, and lithium iron phosphate are great, but I do not believe these are going to work for us in the long term. I do believe, however, that within 30 years electric vehicles will be more practical than ICE if some kind of better battery is made at a low enough price point.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#298

Post by bdcravens » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:44 AM UTC

Schnitz wrote: post #162

akmarinov wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

New house built this year. No 220V in the garage (utility room is inside the house - I used to connect my charger there and run it to garage). However, I was able to easily add 220V, even as a first time DIYer.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#299

Post by bdcravens » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:47 AM UTC

doubled112 wrote: post #233

Schnitz wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

I'm in Canada in a house built in 2012. Attached garage - my living room is above it. The breaker panel is in the garage so it'd be easy to add, but my only 220V devices, the dryer and stove (along with their outlets), are inside the house. I've never heard of a dryer in the garage before. It isn't heated, and in winter months, it's cold enough that snow doesn't melt. Would that have an effect on drying my clothes?

They'd probably still dry, it just may take more energy, depending on your dryer.

Funny enough my internal dryer can cause my clothes to be damp, as the exhaust runs to the attic instead of directly outside, and the moisture can come back into the dryer. (can be overcome by installing an active exhaust fan)

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#300

Post by bdcravens » Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 3:50 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #227

Schnitz wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

> How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I only have 220V in an indoor laundry room, not the garage. Adding it would only be a small one-time expense.

Probably $500-1000 if you hire an electrician. I did it myself fairly easily (largest cost is the copper wire if it's not a short run; GFCI breaker can also add a little cost if you have to have one - it's code in some states)