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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#121

Post by Swenrekcah »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #58
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Yeah, the biggest thing EV proponents seem to miss is that you don't need to force it to be 100% for everyone. Confine any mandates to urban centers where it makes sense, you can get buy in from everyone and solve 95% of the problem. At that point there will be lower hanging fruits than the last 5% or w/e.

I fully agree that not everyone needs to get an EV, there will be edge cases where it won’t be feasible.

Luckily for those people they will have millions of older ICE cars to choose from.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#122

Post by scott_siskind »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #98
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in place that routinely goes below freezing in winter. I’ve never noticed gas mileage change because of temperature. I would definitely notice a difference of 8 MPG. Where do you get that info? Is it personal experience? If so, where do you live?

Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy and drops the effective work done. You're oblivious to it because a motor vehicle has so much available power on tap. It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds. Conversely. Sailboats get more efficient in cold temperatures because more energy is imparted on the sail.

> It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds

Huh? I've been cycling for 15 years, many of those years doing 15k km a year, all year round. Mountain biking on mountains at -15C, down to urban cycling in 38-40C scorching summer heat. I've never noticed speed, effort, stamina changing with temperature as you suggest.

And I've done lots of road cycling at constant 35-40km/h, descents of up to 70+km/h.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#123

Post by seattle_spring »

d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

You could also just make sure to have a L2 charger. There’s some guy on HN who barges into these threads and insists that no one ever needs an L2 charger, but after I had mine installed there’s no way I could live without it.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#124

Post by isityouyesitsme »

jws wrote: post #73
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

OK, 10 years behind EV. It makes sense that it is where it is. Please point out anywhere where anyone says the accomplishments are not remarkable on their own, if you are not comparing them to the thing with 100 years infra behind it.

Now compare that to the seemingly endless number of evangelists who think that 10 years from now is a good time to impose a mandate to kill all new ICE vehicle manufacturing, in spite of EV tech being only 80 years (or 30 years of "modern tech hard push") behind ICE infra.

This is how every conversation about EV goes.

Person A: "look how awesome EV is!"

Person B: "yeah, but it won't work for me based on where I live and the needs I have from a car. It seems foolish to push a mandate for a technology that can't be proven to work how the vast majority of people need it to work."

Person A: "you are being unfair in your comparison!" or "no, you are only imagining those problems!"

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#125

Post by Phlarp »

hedora wrote: post #108
Phlarp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's cold enough a Tesla plugged into 120v/20a charging circuit will actually lose voltage over time. It's consuming over 2000 watts just to keep the battery at an acceptable temp for the chemistry to function. The weight of the battery pack is great for traction in warm / dry conditions, but when driving on ice that weight is just momentum sending you sliding into snow banks. After a bumper or body panel gets rip…

At what temperature would it consume 2000 watts keeping the battery warm? Surely it uses a heat pump, so it is pumping 8000-4000W of heat into the battery pack. That would be a large steady state heat loss!

>That would be a large steady state heat loss!

Yes it is. I don't have a large dataset of exact temp conditions and charging curves (Elon certainly does though, someone go ask him!) I can tell you if the outdoor temps are below 15F a standard outlet has negative net energy input.

A heat pump solution would certainly be more efficient, knowing Tesla I can only assume it's peltier junctions.

All the hype about the efficiency of an EV goes out the window when it's blowing 16kwh+ a day just keeping the battery above freezing.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#126

Post by verelo »

seattle_spring wrote: post #123
d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

You could also just make sure to have a L2 charger. There’s some guy on HN who barges into these threads and insists that no one ever needs an L2 charger, but after I had mine installed there’s no way I could live without it.

Yeah living in Canada and having only outdoor parking, no way i could live without it.

Also it’s just cheaper: electricity is much cheaper over night and if i have to charge 24x7 I’m paying much more.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#127

Post by ikiris »

d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

Normal EV owners have high amp 220 plugs. A 110 20a feed is TERRIBLE for charging in all cases.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#129

Post by tshaddox »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #81
simfree wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18Mpg becomes 10Mpg or worse in the winter in my experience. EV driving can be more efficient if you don't let your battery cold soak for hours, or equally inefficient if you do leave your car unplugged overnight.

Got it. So just make sure your vehicle is constantly consuming energy and you'll never have an issue... unless the power is out for an extended period of time.

If the power is out for an extended period of time you’ll find gasoline hard to come by as well.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#130

Post by ikiris »

thinking4real wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regular EV user here - plugging it in is something you do every time you park, the way you lock your doors. It takes five seconds. Press the «open charge port» button on the charging cable and stick it in the charging socket. Done.

I’m cracking up that you’re making this sound so simple and matter of fact, but reading this description of how one is “supposed” to charge their EV makes me realize i’m many years from wanting one. Honestly, it’s kind of a joke how badly people want to defend the tech despite its current shortcomings.

Yes, plugs are very confusing. They'll offer a course in college for the younger generations.
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