Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

kalzumeus.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 176 posts

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#91

Post by OJFord »

daveidol wrote: post #88
strict9 wrote: post #4

>You are not defined by your chosen software stack: I recently asked via Twitter what young engineers wanted to know about careers. Many asked how to know what programming language or stack to study. It doesn’t matter. There you go. I generally agree with this point and many others in the article but when looking for a position the tech stack of a company you're interviewing with matters a whole lot. Using some older…

Yeah but when you are first starting out it really doesn't matter - what matters more is keeping interested enough to keep learning and growing from wherever you start.

It will affect who you become though - 'a java shop' vs. a Ruby-on-Rails start-up, say - what people think of you, or where you're hireable.

I at least glance over all the recruiter spam I get, and not much of it takes the 'language experience doesn't matter, transferable comprehension of fundamentals does' line.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#92

Post by Dudeman112 »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #62
mixmastamyk wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, it really doesn't matter—until you are interviewed by a shortsighted manager in a hurry, which is all too often.

And isn’t it a good thing that that manager helped you realize not to waste your time with that company?

I see programmers are as good at judging whole-ass companies as hiring managers are good at judging whole-ass peoples

Which is to say, they are awful at it and will act like one observation of one characteristic is more than enough data to evaluate complex machineries

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#93

Post by thaumasiotes »

justusw wrote: post #84
mikewarot wrote: post #2

Don't call yourself an Engineer unless you are licensed to do so. Most states have a professional licensing board to oversee the practice of Engineering. Here's the link to the one in my home state of Indiana.[1] I've been a programmer, system administrator and a machinist. I've never called myself an engineer, and wouldn't want the criminal liability for doing so. I wouldn't call myself a "computer doctor" either fo…

Here in Japan you can hear someone calling themselves a software engineer, fresh out of a bootcamp. The original meaning of engineering has gotten lost over the time, diluted by a sense of self-importance. Imagine a world in which we let the bootcamp grads build our bridges and medical devices (Therac anyone?). I don’t mean to be a gatekeeper. Keeping someone from practicing medicine if they won’t get a degree is not…

> The original meaning of engineering has gotten lost over the time, diluted by a sense of self-importance.

The original meaning is "someone who builds machines, particularly siege engines, or who constructs defenses against those machines". Is that really what you're complaining about?

Perhaps you're referring to the meaning "a guy who shovels coal into a train engine"?

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#94

Post by vore »

n0tth3dro1ds wrote: post #58
mikewarot wrote: post #2

Don't call yourself an Engineer unless you are licensed to do so. Most states have a professional licensing board to oversee the practice of Engineering. Here's the link to the one in my home state of Indiana.[1] I've been a programmer, system administrator and a machinist. I've never called myself an engineer, and wouldn't want the criminal liability for doing so. I wouldn't call myself a "computer doctor" either fo…

Sour grapes from lower paying engineering disciplines that have been hijacked by certification organizations. I’m a software engineer. I earn triple what you earn as a civil engineer, and I don’t have to pay a certification body for the title. I can also work in any state that I want, and I can move without second thought or recertification. Go cry about it.

Beyond certification, licensed engineers are able to be held personally liable for negligence. Perhaps in a jurisdiction that only allows licensed engineers to call themselves engineers, you sound like someone who doesn't want the burden of the title, either.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#95

Post by robocat »

klabb3 wrote: post #49

This whole article is great advice for playing the career game, or “how to fit in and not get bullied at school”. Note that it comes at a cost, and that cost may or may not be worth it to you. Note also that playing a game for a long time you forget that you are playing a game, and you start incorporating the rules of the game into your mind. Some people are more resistant to this effect than others, and some people…

The article finishes with:

  At the end of the day, your life happiness will not be dominated by your career.  Either talk to older people or trust the social scientists who have: family, faith, hobbies, etc etc generally swamp career achievements and money in terms of things which actually produce happiness.  Optimize appropriately.  Your career is important, and right now it might seem like the most important thing in your life, but odds are that is not what you’ll believe forever.  Work to live, don’t live to work.
I paraphrase the article as: (1) these are the real rules, (2) you must know and internalise these rules because playing the game is compulsory if you “choose” to work, (3) you must not fall for fairytales.

> playing the career game

The audience for this article is engineering graduates starting a career, not artists searching for meaning. “Programmer” is right there in the title. Whether you want to play the career game or not, it is one of the few games most of us will play, unfortunately. Totally agree that the game has its compromises.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#96

Post by cortesoft »

mikewarot wrote: post #13
nsxwolf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you give that advice when the job titles are all "xyz engineer"?

I would simply not use the title anywhere. If I got an interview or offer, I would point out the problem with the job title at that time.

You are free to personally think that software developers should not be called engineers, but you are simply factually incorrect if you are telling an employer they are in legal trouble for calling their unlicensed employees software engineers. There is no legal issue, and the industry as a whole has clearly decided it is not a problem with using the job title.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#97

Post by jmclnx »

mempko wrote: post #43

Don't be ashamed to call yourself a programmer. Alex Stepanov, who created hundreds of billions in value by creating the C++ stl calls himself a programmer.

I got the exact opposite advice decades ago if you want to remain technical. If you start becoming the company expert on their business processes as a programmer, time to move to a new company.

That served me very well and I remained a programmer for my whole career.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#98

Post by wankle »

strict9 wrote: post #4

>You are not defined by your chosen software stack: I recently asked via Twitter what young engineers wanted to know about careers. Many asked how to know what programming language or stack to study. It doesn’t matter. There you go. I generally agree with this point and many others in the article but when looking for a position the tech stack of a company you're interviewing with matters a whole lot. Using some older…

I might not be defined by Java but after programming in it since it came out in 1995, I certainly identify with it.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#99

Post by blintz »

I’m sure this article is right about some stuff, but man if it doesn’t make me sad to read.

Software can be so exciting and fun, and this “careerist” perspective really sucks the joy out of it.

If you’re looking for something that is kind of the opposite of this article: https://ferd.ca/the-little-printf.html.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#100

Post by analog31 »

justusw wrote: post #84
mikewarot wrote: post #2

Don't call yourself an Engineer unless you are licensed to do so. Most states have a professional licensing board to oversee the practice of Engineering. Here's the link to the one in my home state of Indiana.[1] I've been a programmer, system administrator and a machinist. I've never called myself an engineer, and wouldn't want the criminal liability for doing so. I wouldn't call myself a "computer doctor" either fo…

Here in Japan you can hear someone calling themselves a software engineer, fresh out of a bootcamp. The original meaning of engineering has gotten lost over the time, diluted by a sense of self-importance. Imagine a world in which we let the bootcamp grads build our bridges and medical devices (Therac anyone?). I don’t mean to be a gatekeeper. Keeping someone from practicing medicine if they won’t get a degree is not…

When people talk about licensing programmers, I always say: "Better watch what you ask for." Licensed means regulated.
Post reply on HN