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FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

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Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#371

Post by asveikau »

karpierz wrote: post #292
xeromal wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, bail is basically a deposit promise that you'll come to the trial when it comes up. Some trials take a few months to a year or two to come up on the docket depending on how busy they are. Bail is usually proportional to your crime and there are businesses that will pay your bail if you give them 10%. They take the risk and will send a bounty hunter after you if you skip bail. Some states like California are tes…

To be clear: bail is not for criminals, it's for people accused of a crime. Which is not to say if you commit murder, you go to jail without bail. It's if you're accused of murder and made to stand trial, then you go to jail without bail, regardless of if you're guilty or not. Really messes with poor people because if they don't have bail money, they either: 1. Sit in jail for a few months, unable to work, while thei…

Thank you for highlighting some of these distinctions.

It seems like in online discussions, and especially in the recent US midterm cycle where crime was said to be an issue, and hell, I've even seen this when I've been called for jury duty ... Many people seemingly do not understand that police or a district attorney accusing someone of a crime is not the same as guilt.

I would say even that many times a conviction doesn't really mean that. We as a country accuse and convict a lot of innocent people, have an unfair punishment mentality, often charge in excess of a person's actual misdeed, etc.

And all of these problems and more are amplified when the accused doesn't have resources to fight it.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#372

Post by [deleted] »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #309
berberous wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think bail norms probably vary by jurisdiction, etc., and your assumptions are not correct. My guess is he was not required to post full collateral, i.e. the only collateral here is the home, and then Sam, his parents, and two others posted essentially an unsecured guarantee for the full $250M, such that the government could recover up that amount from any assets held by any of those parties. While unsecured, note…

Cash bail means the accused pays the full bail amount and then gets it refunded after trial. A surety bond is basically a loan, through a bail bondsman. The bail bondsman has insurance in case you don't show up. A property bond is where the court gets a lien on your property. It sounds like this is what happened. https://money.howstuffworks.com/bail.htm

[deleted]

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#373

Post by csense »

dragonwriter wrote: post #302
csense wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so it's basically a bail bond, sign over the $2M house to get the bondsman to post $250M bond. What bondsman has $250M? Even if they did, why would they ever agree to this? Isn't getting $2M from a defendant on a bail bond less than even the interest you could probably get by just putting your $250M in, say, a Treasury bond over the same timeframe? For that matter, who's willing to bet $250M at 99-to-1 payout od…

> Okay so it's basically a bail bond, It is exactly a bond for bail, yes. > sign over the $2M house to get the bondsman to post $250M bond. No, there is no bondsman, the house is pledged directly to the court as security, his parents are additional surety for the $250M, and two other people are signing lesser bonds.

> his parents are additional surety for the $250M

This is an odd phrase.

So what happens if SBF disappears? Do the parents lose their $2M house? Lose their $2M house and become $248M in debt? Go to jail?

What keeps the whole family from simply going on a sudden vacation to Dubai and letting the court take their house? Losing one's childhood home is sad, but stolen Bitcoins can still buy a very nice replacement.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#374

Post by c22 »

vkou wrote: post #353
dragonwriter wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay so it's basically a bail bond, It is exactly a bond for bail, yes. > sign over the $2M house to get the bondsman to post $250M bond. No, there is no bondsman, the house is pledged directly to the court as security, his parents are additional surety for the $250M, and two other people are signing lesser bonds.

How exactly are his parents able to provide a surety for $250M? Do they have assets worth that much? If not, what's even the point of setting bail at $250M, if you only need to put up $4M in collateral? Why does he get to do this, while someone with a $50,000 bail has to either put up the entire cash amount, or pay 10% in interest to a bondsman?

The court must be convinced that the parties involved are good for it or they would not have accepted the surety. The point of bail is just to ensure you show up to court, not to collect a windfall of profit for the state.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#375

Post by dragonwriter »

ravi-delia wrote: post #279
ggreer wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not easy to work out the statistics because the vast majority of crimes go unsolved. The sensational headlines are the ones where criminals managed to get caught. The ones who were out on bail (or released on their own recognizance) but didn't get caught won't show up in the stats.

A cursory google suggests that 50% of murders go unsolved. Obviously people out on bail are far more likely to be investigated than those who aren't (especially considering that the intersection of "criminals who haven't gotten caught" and "people out on bail" is empty, so we're looking at the finer category of people who have been caught once ), but lets pretend that the opposite is true, and that every single unsol…

> the intersection of "criminals who haven't gotten caught" and "people out on bail" is empty

This is not likely true, and it is definitely not necessarily true.

There are quite likely people out on bail who have (1) committed at least one crime, (2) never been identified and arrested or charged for any crime that they have committed.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#376

Post by dannyw »

gamblor956 wrote: post #11

Note: as a practical matter, SBF's out-of-pocket is probably between 25-50 million (bondsmen normally charge 10%-20%, depending on risk factors and bail amount), and SBF's parents have this much in assets and savings to cover it (and can probably take loans to cover any shortfall), though this will definitely wipe out any of their legitimate holdings.

There's no bondsman. It's a personal recognition bond. It's an IOU.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#377

Post by dragonwriter »

jjcon wrote: post #236
ravi-delia wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because it makes the headlines- working out the real statistics wouldn't even be that hard and would totally remove the need for such sensationalist nonsense, but of course that doesn't pay the bills.

Uhhh… what? So what level of rape/murder is appropriate/acceptable for criminals out on bail to commit, statistically speaking of course? I’m pretty sure the rest of us think it should be 0… but maybe that is just me. 3 notable examples in the last 6 months in one area… not zero… not anywhere close.

> So what level of rape/murder is appropriate/acceptable for criminals out on bail

What level of rape/murder is acceptable from criminals who have not yet been charged with a crime?

The answer is the same as for your question, so unless we are going to preemptively detain everyone not yet charged with a crime, I don't see how the answer to your question can imply we should lock up people who are charged but not convicted.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#378

Post by csense »

dragonwriter wrote: post #308
csense wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on bail for a $250 million bond — secured only on his parents’ home in Palo Alto Wait what? How does that work? I thought if the bond was $X, that literally means you either (a) give the court $X, cash only or (b) sit in jail until trial. How can his bond be set at $250 million, yet the court somehow isn't just making him sit in jail until and unless he either goes to trial and is found not guilty, or he coughs up…

> I thought if the bond was $X, that literally means you either (a) give the court $X, cash only or (b) sit in jail until trial. The simple answer is that you are wrong, that's not how bail and bail bonds work, and its much more complicated than that. Essentially, money bail is a pre-declared failure to appear penalty, and bond is whatever the court accepts as a sufficient promise to pay, which can include purchasing…

Consider Joe Average defendant whose bail is set at $25,000 bail. If Joe tells the judge "Your Honor, I'll sign a paper that says I'll be $25,000 in debt if I don't show up, but my family can only come up with $200 right now" the judge will probably tell him to pound sand and sit in jail until trial.

If SBF tells the judge "Your Honor, I'll sign a paper that says I'll be $250M in debt if I don't show up, but my family can only come up with $2M right now" why did the judge agree and let him out?

What's the fundamental difference, besides just the number of zeros?

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#379

Post by Sebb767 »

bavila wrote: post #202
dredmorbius wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bail isn't a punishment but a guarantee for future appearance . (Edited for clarity.)

It really is bizarre seeing how some people are complaining about a $250 million bond as being a "slap on the wrist". It's not a fine, it's not a punishment -- he hasn't even been convicted of anything yet. He is nothing more than a pre-trial detainee. And, yes, being under house arrest still constitutes detention. Just seems like there's so much bloodlust here against someone who -- under the United States Constitut…

This is not bloodlust. SBF has squandered away billions, including investing several hundred millions in himself. A bond is intended to be high enough so that fleeing will be unlikely but, given SBFs history, him wasting another $250 million doesn't seem that improbable compared to what he pulled off this year.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#380

Post by CamperBob2 »

lokar wrote: post #306
haneefmubarak wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only can they detain him, if he missed court, they can quite literally hire bounty hunters to track him down and bring him to the court so that they can get the money back.

Who, in some cases can break into YOUR house if they think he is hiding there

Awesome. Feed this thread to GPT3 as a prompt and you'll get a Tarantino script or an Elmore Leonard novel.
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