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Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

spectrum.ieee.org

41–50 of 130 posts

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#41

Monocrystalline Si solar panels have so many advantages that it's hard to get interested in anything else for home or business construction. Lifetime is measured in decades, not years; efficiency is approaching 25% while prices are dropping (only expensive multi-junction III-V types are better, currently limited to satellite power systems); and for variable surfaces, they can be manufactured as small shingles as well…

The United States is not behind in terms of R&D funding. I'm pretty sure the United States has spent more on solar R&D than any other nation and the United States has consistently led the world in solar technology. The United States is behind in solar manufacturing not solar R&D.

And no one who has paid attention to the Biden administration would say the Biden administration cares about natural gas prices being low as they consistently take actions that increase natural gas prices.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#42
post #28

Monocrystalline Si solar panels have so many advantages that it's hard to get interested in anything else for home or business construction. Lifetime is measured in decades, not years; efficiency is approaching 25% while prices are dropping (only expensive multi-junction III-V types are better, currently limited to satellite power systems); and for variable surfaces, they can be manufactured as small shingles as well…

Is USA government policy actively antagonistic towards this specific technology? Or just doesn't have specific support/incentives for this specific kind of technology? Is there any reason the market doesn't/can't support buying these panels here? Or are there weird tariffs against it? IS there not already a boom in solar PV installation in the USA? It looks like we're far from a watts-per-capita leader (15th in the w…

The United States is not actively antagonistic toward specific technology and is instead very pro-solar. There are a lot of support/incentives for solar, but not necessarily for this specific kind of technology.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#43

Monocrystalline Si solar panels have so many advantages that it's hard to get interested in anything else for home or business construction. Lifetime is measured in decades, not years; efficiency is approaching 25% while prices are dropping (only expensive multi-junction III-V types are better, currently limited to satellite power systems); and for variable surfaces, they can be manufactured as small shingles as well…

Bear in mind that China has like, no oil[0] or gas[1] at all. Their investments into renewables is kind of a life of death situation, not just for the world, but the PLA specifically, who would likely monopolize domestic oil production in any military engagement.

Also worth mentioning that Beijing sits on one side of a mountain range, and the other side is arid desert. It's kind of a no brainer to drop solar panels there and tramsmit power to the nearby megatropolis.

> Of course a boom in solar PV installation in the USA would pull the rug out from under natural gas prices

Fracking already did this[2]. And solar doesn't make sense in many places in the US. You want somewhere dry and bright, which cuts off the pacific northwest, and most of the north*. You also want to supplement solar with something that will cool off your home in the evening, run your oven, and keep you warm at night. Which natural gas can actually do[3], so even proponents of solar should consider them at least temporary allies.

In contrast, wind seems to already be making 10 percent of the US demand[4], versus solars 2 percent. This is where the subsidies are going, and given how much reliable wind there is in tornado alley, will likely continue growing once subsidies expire. In the mean time, we can continue to import subsidized solar from china and focus on higher margin silicon applications. ^_^

    [0]: https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/crude-petroleum/reporter/chn
    [1]: https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/natural-gas-liquefied/reporter/chn
    [2]: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/rngwhhdm.htm
    [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant
    [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_States
*except for the southern half of Minnesota, apparently

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of areas in the US are great for solar, but for many of the urban areas, it sucks. Solar in and around LA or Denver? Great! Solar in and around Detroit or Chicago? Awful. I brought out an installer and he literally LOLed when he saw my house. Great trees, wonderful yard, compact house, but hardly any location for solar given the amount of sun we get where I live. Not to mention the carbon costs of producing sol…

It’s ok if solar doesn't work everywhere, even in the places where it’s optimal it’s barely being used right now. There’s a lot of work to be done. Even if we just covered the country’s parking lots with solar awnings we’d be producing huge amounts of power.

The problem with solar awnings is the cost. It's much more cost-effective to install solar on a field or an open area than a parking lot. Parking lot installations much more expensive because of the additional infrastructure needed.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#45

Key item here: “These cells as they are could last one or two years without packaging,” Bulović says. “With packaging, we could extend that to five to 10 years. And that’s plenty.” As with existing thin film cells, degradation in real-world outdoor conditions is significant and limits usefulness.

this suggests it might be useful in temporary deployments, to judge how much solar input actual sites get for a typical period — then replaced with a more permanent solution.

There are purpose-built tools for that sort of thing, whether pen and paper under a fisheye lens (https://www.solarpathfinder.com/), an app, or a dedicated device like https://www.solmetric.com/buy210.html

Edit: You can also do it with aerial photogrammetry and smart software, like https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/ and https://www.opensolar.com/accuracy

Either method would you get accurate enough readings in a few minutes (if you're onsite) or seconds (if you just use the software method). The earth's orbit and tilt is relatively predictable so really you just have to do the math (or let the software do it) to figure out how local obstructions (trees, other buildings, hills on the horizon, etc.) influence your shading.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#46

If weight is the issue, well fine. But they deliver (back of the envelope) 37W per square meter. While conventional panels deliver ~200. So any application that's space-limited, these are not a win. And isn't that, every home installation?

There's no reason to use these on buildings. But think backpacks, balloons, gliders/drones, fabrics for clothing/canvases/sails/porches...

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#47
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3500kg for the whole vehicle including interior + 100L of water + 100L of Diesel + 50 L of gray water + 2 Passengers + 1 shower + 1 bed + 1 kitchen + 2x11 l gas etc. As I mentioned: A typical camper van is borderline at 3300 kg already so you have 200 kg for cloths, food, water to drink, bedding, etc. It even matters whether or not you gained 10kg during winter or lost 10kg. 16kg equates to about 2 lithium ion 100WH…

The limit is for maximum authorized mass (which is basically "what manufacturer says" it can carry max) not current mass. I doubt anyone will ticket you over being 10 kilos extra... On top of that you could probably pick any other part to make lighter and come out cheaper than buying fancy solar panels

No you are incorrect. There are 2 maximum masses: the one from the manufacturer and then the legal mass limit. Legal mass limit = MIN(3.5t, max mass according to manufacturer) or more precisely MIN(max_mass_you_are_certified_for, may_mass_according_to_manufacturer).

It is not about + or - 10 kg. But things definitely add up. 10kg here - 10kg there.

Solar panels is something that is under the control of whoever buys the vehicle. You have almost no influence of the vast majority of what makes up the van.

You also risk insurance issues when your car is over weight.

Believe me - weight is definitely an issue.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could run cables down the roof and the outside outside of the wall which not particularly rare. Actually that's the case for one of the aerials on my roof. And piercing roofs isn't exactly uncommon. Aircon vents, chimneys, mountings for aerials etc. The thing with something like this is that it doesn't have to be an optimal solution which instantly solves all our problems, which is what a lot of people seem to de…

ressources are not infinite and framing the problem as one of good being the enemy of perfect is disingenuous. Rooftop solar is a terrible idea when compared to the alternative - utility scale solar, installed at the right location, in the right way, with economies of scale; all while achieving everything you mentioned. Rooftop solar has numerous problems, starting with structural considerations, scale, shading, impe…

Because we're not installing solar farms and are installing rooftop solar in many locations because land is limited and expensive and roofs aren't? Not everywhere has large amounts of empty land waiting to be built on

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#49
post #28

Monocrystalline Si solar panels have so many advantages that it's hard to get interested in anything else for home or business construction. Lifetime is measured in decades, not years; efficiency is approaching 25% while prices are dropping (only expensive multi-junction III-V types are better, currently limited to satellite power systems); and for variable surfaces, they can be manufactured as small shingles as well…

Is USA government policy actively antagonistic towards this specific technology? Or just doesn't have specific support/incentives for this specific kind of technology? Is there any reason the market doesn't/can't support buying these panels here? Or are there weird tariffs against it? IS there not already a boom in solar PV installation in the USA? It looks like we're far from a watts-per-capita leader (15th in the w…

The Republican party in the united states is so anti-green energy, they removed solar panels from the white house in the 80s, shortly after they were installed, just because they didn't like them. They also blamed wind turbines for the extreme grid failure in Texas last year, and it is a current talking point that "wind and solar can't ever work" and that wind turbines kill so many birds that we can't possibly ever use them large scale. They have pitched a fit any time the government attempts to hand a small subsidy out for green energy.

Meanwhile the Democrats have wonderful Manchin, who stops you from doing ANYTHING to help the country unless you include some stupid kickback to like five coal barons in west virginia, despite the entire coal industry employing fewer people than plenty of industries we don't give handouts to. Coal is dying a perfectly reasonable death because it's just not cost competitive with anything, even though we ignore the most expensive part of it, the pollution. Despite that, west virginia keeps a stranglehold on the nations energy policy because 60k absurdly entitled adults are convinced that what their daddy did for a job that killed him in his 60s should be a career forever with no changes and they shouldn't have to adapt in any way to the modern world that DOESN'T want to poison them. When hilary clinton said the country would pay for them to learn new skills and get new careers, they responded by pretty heavily voting for the guy that said they could just go back to digging dirty rocks out of the ground. The entire state is somehow (it's propaganda, literally, from local coal companies) convinced that the modern world is impossible without coal, as if it is still the 1800s, ignoring that most of the world hates coal, always hated using coal, and has always switched to less grimy fuel sources as soon as it became cost competitive, which it is.

And don't give me any of this "wah wah don't bring partisan politics into this" because green energy policy is 100% partisan, with no reason, in the united states, and ignoring that, or trying to "both sides same" this issue is simply delusional.

IMO, the US federal government should drop a trillion dollars on a federal run solar power company, who's only mandate is to buy as much damn solar generation as possible, and sell it to local consumers as cheaply as possible, and "but it might be cloudy some days" problems should be solved by buying 10x as much solar as "needed".

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#50
> any surface

Titles are tricky, especially when you’re an editor who got Peter Principled out of writing.

I have surfaces, Greg. Could you make me photovoltaic?

> We now do, Bulović says. He envisions one day being able to buy a large carpet of solar cells “and simply unroll it on a roof.”

So I addition to hail we can now add “a stiff breeze” to the list of things that can destroy your solar array. You can’t just lay a thin film on a surface and expect it to stay there. I’d expect better from a materials scientist. If this makes it to commercialization, it will be laminated onto hard surfaces, not simply rolled out on “any surface”.

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