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Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

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Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#21

Post by r_hoods_ghost »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #17
eldaisfish wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disadvantage being that they add weight to the roof and are a significant source of wind load.

And pierce the supposedly waterproof roof (the entire point of a roof). And mounted at whatever angle the roof is built, instead of an optimal angle. And are in the most difficult place for maintenance and cleaning, so those things will be neglected. And you need to replace the roof? Now what?

You could run cables down the roof and the outside outside of the wall which not particularly rare. Actually that's the case for one of the aerials on my roof. And piercing roofs isn't exactly uncommon. Aircon vents, chimneys, mountings for aerials etc. The thing with something like this is that it doesn't have to be an optimal solution which instantly solves all our problems, which is what a lot of people seem to demand when it comes to anything which is even vaguely green, it just needs to be cheap and easy and move us away from our reliance on fossil fuels. This, along with traditional solar, hydro, onshore and offshore wind, nuclear etc. all have their place.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#22

Post by eldaisfish »

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #21
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And pierce the supposedly waterproof roof (the entire point of a roof). And mounted at whatever angle the roof is built, instead of an optimal angle. And are in the most difficult place for maintenance and cleaning, so those things will be neglected. And you need to replace the roof? Now what?

You could run cables down the roof and the outside outside of the wall which not particularly rare. Actually that's the case for one of the aerials on my roof. And piercing roofs isn't exactly uncommon. Aircon vents, chimneys, mountings for aerials etc. The thing with something like this is that it doesn't have to be an optimal solution which instantly solves all our problems, which is what a lot of people seem to de…

ressources are not infinite and framing the problem as one of good being the enemy of perfect is disingenuous. Rooftop solar is a terrible idea when compared to the alternative - utility scale solar, installed at the right location, in the right way, with economies of scale; all while achieving everything you mentioned.

Rooftop solar has numerous problems, starting with structural considerations, scale, shading, imperfect angles, local grid congestion and so on. Why have everyone waste money on this when we could just install solar farms?

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#23

Post by ck2 »

Imagine in a decade or two a paint that as long as it's continuous, it becomes an electron pump in the sun.

One electrode per side of the house or whatever structure, even roads, signs, etc.

Even if it was only a few percent efficiency, the massive surface areas would be more than enough regardless of sun angle or intensity.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#24

Post by photochemsyn »

Monocrystalline Si solar panels have so many advantages that it's hard to get interested in anything else for home or business construction. Lifetime is measured in decades, not years; efficiency is approaching 25% while prices are dropping (only expensive multi-junction III-V types are better, currently limited to satellite power systems); and for variable surfaces, they can be manufactured as small shingles as well as the standard size panel.

Unfortunately the USA, due to decades of minimal R&D funding, is well behind the technology curve in this area:

> "Some Chinese companies are defying the “more efficient = more expensive” rule in 2022. High efficiency solar panels are entering the market from companies like LonGi, Canadian Solar, and Trina Solar that surpass the 20 percent efficiency rating, but cost less per watt as opposed to SunPower, LG and Panasonic panels. Solar is cheaper than ever without sacrificing efficiency ratings, which begs the question if U.S manufacturers will be able to maintain their pricing premiums."

https://news.energysage.com/what-are-the-most-efficient-sola...

Of course a boom in solar PV installation in the USA would pull the rug out from under natural gas prices, which more-or-less explains government policy in this area.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#25

Post by ilyt »

struggle2 wrote: post #18
ttoinou wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

16 kg on 3500 kg is nothing and you definitely need 200W and not 40W

3500kg for the whole vehicle including interior + 100L of water + 100L of Diesel + 50 L of gray water + 2 Passengers + 1 shower + 1 bed + 1 kitchen + 2x11 l gas etc. As I mentioned: A typical camper van is borderline at 3300 kg already so you have 200 kg for cloths, food, water to drink, bedding, etc. It even matters whether or not you gained 10kg during winter or lost 10kg. 16kg equates to about 2 lithium ion 100WH…

The limit is for maximum authorized mass (which is basically "what manufacturer says" it can carry max) not current mass.

I doubt anyone will ticket you over being 10 kilos extra...

On top of that you could probably pick any other part to make lighter and come out cheaper than buying fancy solar panels

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#26

Post by toss1 »

>>The fabric modules had a power density of 370 watts per kilogram and weighed 0.1 kilogram per square meter. Commercial residential silicon solar panels, by contrast, have a power density of 20 W/kg and weigh 10.7 kg/m2

So, the fabric modules have an areal power density of 37 W/m^2 vs. commercial residential panels at 214 W/m^2. So, fantastic for weight, but on a per-area basis, about 5.8 area units are needed for every unit of std panels.

This also means that a 370 W/kg vs 20 W/kg, the thin film has an 18.5X power / weight advantage. And that does not even count the further advantage of not needing the extensive support structures of current panels.

I also wonder about how they would tolerate regular rolling and unrolling, such as stowing them for bad weather; would that be a net longevity benefit?

>> “These cells as they are could last one or two years without packaging,” Bulović says. “With packaging, we could extend that to five to 10 years. And that’s plenty.”

That all depends on cost. If they are cheap enough, 2 years might be fine, as long as they can be recycled and don't just create a landfill problem (but even then, the 1:18.5 weight advantage drastically reduces any landfill problem).

This is fantastic, if they get even close to the cost/watt.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#27

Post by ilyt »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #17
eldaisfish wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disadvantage being that they add weight to the roof and are a significant source of wind load.

And pierce the supposedly waterproof roof (the entire point of a roof). And mounted at whatever angle the roof is built, instead of an optimal angle. And are in the most difficult place for maintenance and cleaning, so those things will be neglected. And you need to replace the roof? Now what?

> And are in the most difficult place for maintenance and cleaning, so those things will be neglected.

They don't need much service. And it's not like you need a helicopter to get there

> And you need to replace the roof? Now what?

That's one in 50 years event

Like yeah, if you have good amount of space that is otherwise unused go ahead, but realistically someone will want that space for a house or business, not a bunch of glassy squares, those can go on roof.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#28

Post by rconti »

photochemsyn wrote: post #24

Monocrystalline Si solar panels have so many advantages that it's hard to get interested in anything else for home or business construction. Lifetime is measured in decades, not years; efficiency is approaching 25% while prices are dropping (only expensive multi-junction III-V types are better, currently limited to satellite power systems); and for variable surfaces, they can be manufactured as small shingles as well…

Is USA government policy actively antagonistic towards this specific technology? Or just doesn't have specific support/incentives for this specific kind of technology?

Is there any reason the market doesn't/can't support buying these panels here? Or are there weird tariffs against it?

IS there not already a boom in solar PV installation in the USA?

It looks like we're far from a watts-per-capita leader (15th in the world?), although we are ahead of China, for now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_by_country

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#29

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

eldaisfish wrote: post #22
r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could run cables down the roof and the outside outside of the wall which not particularly rare. Actually that's the case for one of the aerials on my roof. And piercing roofs isn't exactly uncommon. Aircon vents, chimneys, mountings for aerials etc. The thing with something like this is that it doesn't have to be an optimal solution which instantly solves all our problems, which is what a lot of people seem to de…

ressources are not infinite and framing the problem as one of good being the enemy of perfect is disingenuous. Rooftop solar is a terrible idea when compared to the alternative - utility scale solar, installed at the right location, in the right way, with economies of scale; all while achieving everything you mentioned. Rooftop solar has numerous problems, starting with structural considerations, scale, shading, impe…

because even with the inefficiencies it more than pays for itself.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#30

Post by hnbear »

Why does the Active-Surfaces website explicitly call out that it’s unavailable in the USA? That’s the site for the startup developing this tech, linked from the article.

Active-Surfaces.com

——

The Active Surfaces® brand is not available for import, purchase or distribution in the United States of America and territories. Any and all product claims and descriptions contained on this website or in other sales or promotional materials regarding the Active Surfaces® brand, including claims and descriptions of its public health benefits and antimicrobial or antibacterial effects, are not applicable in the US states and territories.

——

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