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Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

nytimes.com

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Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#241

Post by Moissanite »

dragonwriter wrote: post #176
tptacek wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "maximum" sentence here isn't even a theoretical maximum; it's just what happens if you take the statutory limit on what could be sentenced in the worst possible combination of circumstances , and it assumes that charges don't group or get served concurrently. It's annoying that they cite this number at all, because it simply has no bearing as to how things get sentenced in reality.

> The "maximum" sentence here isn't even a theoretical maximum; Yes, it is. > it's just what happens if you take the statutory limit on what could be sentenced in the worst possible combination of circumstances, and it assumes that charges don't group or get served concurrently. Which is , in fact, the theoretical maximum, because while the Sentencing Guidelines call for grouping and concurrent sentences in certain c…

> more what you'd call “guidelines” than actual rules

I look forward to a blog on "The Pirates Code as applied to criminal prosecution in the US." I mean, it is already clear that you can avoid punishment by producing enough pieces of eight, so I wonder what other similarities there are.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#242

Post by hnews_account_1 »

LatteLazy wrote: post #218
ffssffss wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She got 11 years of which she'll have to serve at least around 9 because it's federal, and that was for something that probably wasn't fraudulent from the very beginning. So, seems like they... won't be okay.

I thought FTX was not fraudulent from the beginning. It only went that way when Alameda started losing cash (it was originally very profitable). When, instead of just letting it die, SBF decided to use customer money to save it (and also to pay himself and others bonuses and buy people free houses and other shit)?

All of crypto is a fraud in a literal sense because it is self referential and a zero sum game. But the regulators are not willing to face that question so the companies keep going.

In that sense, the concept of a token created by you and traded largely by your firm being used as collateral for loans was incredibly fraudulent. The fact that the DoJ is acting only after the token fell and revealed that SBF used customer funds to rescue it, is either a strategy or an oversight. Same way they don’t want to touch Tether just yet even if it’s so obviously a fraud.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#243

Post by benjaminwootton »

LatteLazy wrote: post #237
benjaminwootton wrote: post #231

Having scanned the documents, I can imagine a dynamic where Ellison was the CEO, but SBF was really pulling the strings. I bet many companies are like that, where investors or a chairman are the real decision maker and the CEO is managing downwards only. Especially when you have a complex corporate setup where you are told to request funds and resources from a parent org etc. If I am in a C-level position again I wou…

I get where you are coming from, but if she was CEO, she was responsible for her actions (and inactions) in that position. Letting some people off is not just and the various narratives these people are all spinning to avoid responsibility for their actions are ALL equally BS.

As the CEO of a company then you are still subservient to the chairman, board, investors, CEO of the group etc. Its a difficult dynamic at the level when you start to carry civil and criminal liability too.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#244

Post by gadders »

LastTrain wrote: post #122
lordfrito wrote: post #41

Any ideas why these prosecutions are moving forward so fast? Usually this stuff takes forever as evidence is carefully gathered. Curious if anyone has any insights here.

Because there is an administration in power that is more willing to prioritize prosecuting financial crimes.

And all the donation cheques bounced.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#245

Post by gadders »

infrawhispers wrote: post #3

SEC Complaint with more details. https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2022-234 I have read more SEC complaints this year than in all of my previous years combined. —- Edit 1 Caroline’s guilty plea: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23495436-crypto-coop...

I hope they all do jail time or none of them do.

Also, reading what SBF says about his lawyer, he seems a bit sketchy as well (but obviously that is a one-sided account).

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#246

Post by A_D_E_P_T »

nixgeek wrote: post #155
bushbaba wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And gets out after 5 years for “good behavior”.

Federal sentences come with a maximum of 54 days per year [1] of good time credit, and there is no parole when serving federal time. This all but guarantees that a 10 year sentence will result in 102 months of incarceration and release no earlier than that. [1] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/02/11/2022-02...

Look up the recent case of Aaron Singerman. He was sentenced to five years, but was out in ten months. Didn't spend a single Christmas behind bars. Now, this was presumably for some form of cooperation, and the circumstances are unclear -- but it's just not true that the Feds won't let you out early if they feel like it.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#247

Post by japaneseminisub »

HWR_14 wrote: post #167
TotoHorner wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, great lawyers and connections might still make something out of it. That's my concern. Caroline's father is an MIT professor who was previously Gary Gensler's (head of SEC) boss. It would be extremely disheartening if Caroline gets an extremely generous plea deal due to her father's connections.

What is up with the conspiracy theories that professors are somehow politically powerful entities? Is everyone putting forth these theories still in college? Do they not know how little power college professors wield outside academia. Personal connections to the head of the SEC on the other hand are valuable.

I agree that the focus on her father's professorship is strange in this context.

More broadly it seems like it might be blurring lines... SBF's parents being specifically Law professors, and having a certain level of access to FTX, would likely have been aware of any criminality occurring and should have tried to prevent it.

You're right that what matters is: - Ellison's father is strongly connected to the SEC head - SBF's mother was a major fundraiser for the DNC

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#248

Post by abigail95 »

elliekelly wrote: post #70
jcampbell1 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. People were throwing out potential immunity, or other complete nonsense for cooperation. There weren’t even discussions about recommended prison time as that can blow the prosecutions case against SBF. The idea that there is some agreement for say 5 years recommended is not on the table in this type of situation.

> The idea that there is some agreement for say 5 years recommended is not on the table in this type of situation. That is absolutely the situation. That’s why you take the deal. They got her to plead to seven counts! There’s almost certainly an agreed-upon recommended sentencing.

If they agreed to it - it would be in the document. Instead it says:

> This Office cannot, and does not, make any promise of representation as to what sentence the defendant wil receive, and will not recommend any specific sentence to the Court.

That's not in every federal plea agreement. If there was a deal done for sentencing guidance, it would be there to read. A common one is something like "Acceptance of Responsibility", where parties to the agreement say that because of their cooperation, the government will provide evidence to the court to help meet a reduction via the sentencing guidelines.

I would accept this deal if I were Caroline Ellison because the alternative of being found guilty would give me a much harsher sentence.

Pleading guilty, admitting your involvement in the crime, and making restitutions are parts of the sentencing guidelines. Everyone has access to these - you don't need a deal to get them.

You plead guilty - you get a lesser sentence. That's why she (and I would too) did it.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#249

Post by TotoHorner »

HWR_14 wrote: post #167
TotoHorner wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, great lawyers and connections might still make something out of it. That's my concern. Caroline's father is an MIT professor who was previously Gary Gensler's (head of SEC) boss. It would be extremely disheartening if Caroline gets an extremely generous plea deal due to her father's connections.

What is up with the conspiracy theories that professors are somehow politically powerful entities? Is everyone putting forth these theories still in college? Do they not know how little power college professors wield outside academia. Personal connections to the head of the SEC on the other hand are valuable.

> Do they not know how little power college professors wield outside academia

Are you joking?

That's absolutely not the case for Economics (the context we're talking about here).

Why don't you look up the backgrounds of the people on the Federal Reserve Board of Governors?

Or, look up who drafts major legislation? If you watch MIT's Econ 101 course on YouTube, the professor who teaches it was actually the guy behind Obamacare (John Gruber).

Modern Monetary Policy has become a huge part of a base of the Democratic Party, again... drafted by an Economics Professor.

> Is everyone putting forth these theories still in college? Do they not know how little power college professors wield outside academia.

No. I'm not still in college.

You just seem to be completely unaware on how influential Economists (almost all of whom are college professors) are.

> Personal connections to the head of the SEC on the other hand are valuable

Oh yeah, head of the SEC is also an MIT Econ Professor.

But... clearly they have no power outside academia!!

Saying otherwise is a conspiracy theory!!

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#250

Post by tyleo »

orwin wrote: post #233
LatteLazy wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She got 11 years for lying about her product in order to defraud people...

And? Sorry but musk sold robot-taxi by 2020 and cheaper trucking by 2019. And precommands. I don't see any differences between the two. I admit I did look at thunderfoot's videos on musk and was convinced since 2019 he was a small conman. I don't understand how Holmes is any different.

Lying about future products, “it will do X” is much different than lying about what you have in the market right now “it is doing X”.

Elon engages in the first, Holmes in the second. I think, if Holmes merely went bankrupt because she couldn’t get to a functional product rather than releasing a product and knowingly lying about its capabilities, she’d be in much less hot water.

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