Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 154 posts

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#131

Post by lazide »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #123
lazide wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually because the grade and location of the water is not suitable for residential use.

Farmers don't need drinking-safe water but that doesn't justify the price difference. There should be three grades of water: 1) Untreated. 2) Salty (desalinated, but not to full freshwater standards), used for toilets, showers and the like. 3) Potable. What you're doing with the water should have no bearing on the price and the price difference should only reflect the additional cost of going from #1 or #2 to #3. You…

Why should someone pay a ‘Colorado watershed price’ for a gallon of water they pump from their own well on their own land, if that aquifer doesn’t meaningfully participate in that watershed, and isn’t even drawn on by other people?

Most of Central California for instance isn’t in a watershed that connects to the Colorado in any way.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#132

Post by lazide »

ancapsfascists wrote: post #98
lazide wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That literally sounds like the opposite of anarchism to me. But you do you I guess?

Sounds like you don't know many anarchists? Most of the anarchists I know are focused on: Building mutual aid networks locally, first and foremost. We help us, we protect us. Think food, clothing, and shelter for anyone in need. Advocate for harm reduction. Given there are a lot of systemic problems that will take years to unwind, it's important to offset those harms, even if it's not your ultimate goal. I vote. It t…

The definition I could find of anarchism as a political philosophy is:

“Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is skeptical of all justifications for authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including, though not necessarily limited to, governments, nation states, and capitalism”

You sound like you’re describing being a good neighbor. Which is good.

But I don’t see how it has any bearing on being an anarchist.

And encouraging the feds to step in to fix interstate water rights sounds very pragmatic, but the opposite of that political philosophy. Unless you’d expect it to weaken their power.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#133

Post by ancapsfascists »

TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote: post #103
hutzlibu wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't know what the comment to you was insinuating" Obviously that anarchism means, being opposed to all government activity, regulation and rules, so he cannot call him an anarchist if he wants rules for a river. But the thing with anarchism is, that there is not really a authorative definition accepted and in use ..

> But the thing with anarchism is, that there is not really a authorative definition accepted and in use .. Sure there is: anarchism (n.) "political doctrine advocating leaderlessness," 1640s; see anarchy + -ism. anarchy (n.) 1530s, "absence of government," from French anarchie or directly from Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek anarkhia "lack of a leader, the state of people without a government" (in Athens, used o…

This is not, by any stretch, what modern anarchists would use as a definition.

Try instead, "a society free from unjust hierarchies". Most anarchists are comfortable with the idea of democracy, elections, and delegation of decision making. As long as it's consensual and democratic. Think of like, "hey, we need a treasurer to manage the finances".

Anarchism is not a unified idea. Anarcho syndicalism is different from Anarcho communism is different from Anarcho socialism.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#134

Post by lazide »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #120
lazide wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, though it helps. On a flood year, the Colorado is pretty nuts.

What's the real impact of a downpour year (like the 1980s had) downstream of Glen canyon dam without the Hoover dam in place? It looks like Yuma is the only population center before you get to Mexico. Mexico historically gets basically 0 water from the river from what I understand.

There are some interesting studies on it, but practically ‘it depends’. Mostly water capture infra, bridges, etc. right now I imagine.

We’d want to capture as much of that water though, most likely.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#135

Post by ancapsfascists »

lazide wrote: post #132
ancapsfascists wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you don't know many anarchists? Most of the anarchists I know are focused on: Building mutual aid networks locally, first and foremost. We help us, we protect us. Think food, clothing, and shelter for anyone in need. Advocate for harm reduction. Given there are a lot of systemic problems that will take years to unwind, it's important to offset those harms, even if it's not your ultimate goal. I vote. It t…

The definition I could find of anarchism as a political philosophy is: “Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is skeptical of all justifications for authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including, though not necessarily limited to, governments, nation states, and capitalism” You sound like you’re describing being a good neighb…

Go re read my posts. I think we should not have the federal or state governments.

But we do have them. So using them as a tool, until we can replace them with something better, is fine.

And indeed, most anarchists are just "be a good neighbor, at scale".

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#136

Post by ancapsfascists »

dontlaugh wrote: post #105
ancapsfascists wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guy, I've spent a decade reading up on that word. You want to talk Bookchin, Kroptkin, or Öcalan I'm available any time. Respect to my anarchist comrades who are all or nothing, but I recognize the current system we live in, and I'm not going to throw away the useful tools before replacing them.

As a communist, respect to pragmatic anarchist comrades. State power can be useful, even if we both wish to be rid of it.

Heck yeah. I might disagree with my communists friends, but we're closer together than we are far apart.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#137

Post by ancapsfascists »

listenallyall wrote: post #102
ancapsfascists wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market socialism and market communism exist. I think they are bad ideologies, but they exist. Don't confuse ideals with immediate needs. My ideals, and what I'm willing to do today in the name of harm reduction aren't always aligned. It's called "making compromises" and "using your judgement". A blindly dogmatic adherence to ones own idealism is a recipe for all talk but no material improvements.

> blindly dogmatic adherence So then what's with the insistence (and multiple reminders) of self-labelling as "anarchist"? Why not pragmatist, or harm-reducer, or just not labelling or categorizing yourself at all?

Because I'm an anarchist, that label is both correct and useful?

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#138

Post by hutzlibu »

ancapsfascists wrote: post #133
TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the thing with anarchism is, that there is not really a authorative definition accepted and in use .. Sure there is: anarchism (n.) "political doctrine advocating leaderlessness," 1640s; see anarchy + -ism. anarchy (n.) 1530s, "absence of government," from French anarchie or directly from Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek anarkhia "lack of a leader, the state of people without a government" (in Athens, used o…

This is not, by any stretch, what modern anarchists would use as a definition. Try instead, "a society free from unjust hierarchies". Most anarchists are comfortable with the idea of democracy, elections, and delegation of decision making. As long as it's consensual and democratic. Think of like, "hey, we need a treasurer to manage the finances". Anarchism is not a unified idea. Anarcho syndicalism is different from…

"a society free from unjust hierarchies"

What would be a just hierarchie?

"Most anarchists are comfortable with the idea of democracy, elections, and delegation of decision making. As long as it's consensual and democratic"

Most anarchists I met, not so much. Till the extreme point of "anarchists don't vote". Not even in a small group. There is a consensus or there is no decision.

I like the idea of doing things in a consensus. But only one person in a bad mood can then block everything. But when you remove that person, it is not really a democratic consensus anymore, but majority rule .. which is fine by me, but is probably not "pure anarchism" anymore.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#139

Post by hutzlibu »

TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote: post #115
hutzlibu wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The joke was, that anarchists in general are not a big fan of authorative things, so you can cite all the definitions you want - there will be still lots of anarchists who will oppose that and have their own definition. And yes, they are contradictive, as for example some anarchists negate all authorithy all the time (at least in theory), while some are fine with voluntarily authority, with a grey area into unvolunta…

Some people oppose all 'hierarchies', and say that is anarchism, but it is clear those are different words, and good luck getting rid of hierarchies without mass genocide, unless that is the real purpose.

"good luck getting rid of hierarchies without mass genocide, unless that is the real purpose"

The idea of the peaceful anarchism like gandhi represented is, to convince people to just stop following unjust orders. No need for genocide this way and he showed, that this can work sometimes.

The problem I see rather with the natural developing of informal hierachies in group dynamics. In other words, there will be leaders, even if they say everyone is equal.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#140

Post by ancapsfascists »

hutzlibu wrote: post #138
ancapsfascists wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not, by any stretch, what modern anarchists would use as a definition. Try instead, "a society free from unjust hierarchies". Most anarchists are comfortable with the idea of democracy, elections, and delegation of decision making. As long as it's consensual and democratic. Think of like, "hey, we need a treasurer to manage the finances". Anarchism is not a unified idea. Anarcho syndicalism is different from…

"a society free from unjust hierarchies" What would be a just hierarchie? "Most anarchists are comfortable with the idea of democracy, elections, and delegation of decision making. As long as it's consensual and democratic" Most anarchists I met, not so much. Till the extreme point of "anarchists don't vote". Not even in a small group. There is a consensus or there is no decision. I like the idea of doing things in a…

I've met those types of anarchists. They get nothing done in the name of ideological purity. They'll still be getting nothing done two centuries from now.

I think incrementalism is a dead end too - at some point we need to make some hard cuts away from current systems, but it's self defeating to not acknowledge the material reality in front of us.

Post reply on HN