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Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

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Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#51
post #40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snap really sucks because it forces you to have a /home/user/snap folder on the same filesystem as /. If you don't have that (e.g. home folder symlinked to another filesystem), then snap starts breaking in very weird ways. https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/limitations-in-snapd/9718 This actually means that at some point I will have to move away from Ubuntu.

Debian is very nice these days if you don't mind a tiny bit of enabling non-free repos. Or Pop OS for a more It Just Works approach, if their desktop suits your fancy.

Right now I'm stuck with nVidia's Jetson line of products which is vendor-locked to Ubuntu. The problem is that while you can extend them with a large SSD drive, these products have a really small disk used for /. I could run another OS inside a Docker container, all to avoid this limitation in snap, but of course things will not become prettier.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#53
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. Win32 is the only stable userspace ABI on Linux, so I'm glad they're supporting it. There's no point in supporting native ports of games that simply won't work anymore 4 years from now because everything else changed.

In another words, there is no money in GNU/Linux games.

Why do you care? You really need to get over the "Linus said something bad about my mother 20 years ago" or whatever your issue is. It's just weird at this point.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#54
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In another words, there is no money in GNU/Linux games.

Exactly. I played life is strange 2 recently. It has a native Linux Version. On startup it complained I should set my CPU governor to performance instead of governor. Then it said it only supports AMD and Nvidia cards. I pressed continue and the system hard-locked. This machine is about a year old today, and this is the only crash I had, ever. After that I configured steam to use the windows version instead, and I co…

Hence "OS/2 runs Windows better", all over again.

We all know how that ended.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#55
post #44
post #10

Linus at DebConf 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=310&v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc&feature=yo... >I’m on a record saying, that maybe Valve will actually save the Linux desktop. And it’s actually not because I think games are important! I don't care, I don't play games. I think some people do, so games maybe important. But the really important issue is I guarantee you Valve will not make 15 different binaries. And I also guarant…

Unless we’re talking about embedded systems (and most of the time, not even then I’d guess for portable gaming devices for example), what is the actual drawback of these “huge” binaries? Wasn’t the reason to separate binaries and libraries in the first place to conserve disk space? They are then clearly versioned to signal that you can’t expect just any version of the library to work with the program you wrote. The t…

> Unless we’re talking about embedded systems (and most of the time, not even then I’d guess for portable gaming devices for example), what is the actual drawback of these “huge” binaries?

The functional package management/build system design instantiated by Guix and Nix shows that you can have the best of both worlds when it comes to static and dynamic linking, even without any form of containerization. Guix in particular has a feature called 'grafts' which implements a kind of hot patching for libraries in programs which are nominally dynamically linked but which in fact never search for libraries other than the exact versions they were built with.

So there's no need to choose between the portability of static linking or the efficiency and flexibility of dynamic linking. You can get all of those things together, today, for many thousands of packages.

If you're not familiar with the basic outline of these build systems, the idea is basically this:

  - every package gets installed to a unique, quasi-content-addressed location
  - each such location has its own FHS-like tree which gets treated as a prefix for that package at build time
  - every package gets manually pointed to each of it's dependencies' unique, full paths at build time
this ensures that each package always tries to load the libraries it was built with, and allows multiple versions of libraries to safely exist side-by-side, even when everything is dynamically linked.

To ship a package, you then just ship the whole dependency closure, which gives you the portability that motivates people to distribute static binaries.

Here's some info on Guix grafts, for an idea of how security updates can still be managed in such a system.

The official docs for grafts: https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/html_node/Security-Updates.ht...

Original blog post/announcement for the feature: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2016/timely-delivery-of-security-u...

Detailed writeup of further implementation details: https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/2020/grafts-continued/

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#56
post #10

Linus at DebConf 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=310&v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc&feature=yo... >I’m on a record saying, that maybe Valve will actually save the Linux desktop. And it’s actually not because I think games are important! I don't care, I don't play games. I think some people do, so games maybe important. But the really important issue is I guarantee you Valve will not make 15 different binaries. And I also guarant…

Space is cheap for now, so I'll accept that

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#57
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In another words, there is no money in GNU/Linux games.

Why do you care? You really need to get over the "Linus said something bad about my mother 20 years ago" or whatever your issue is. It's just weird at this point.

You are the ones that need to get over the fact that these are Windows games, not Linux.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah one of the reasons I decided to take the plunge and install Linux on my macbook is the compatibility with 32 bit games (risk of rain in particular).

As I have a M1 MBP I am probably going to have to have a separate gaming laptop, or possibly Steam Deck in the future, for quite some time.

[deleted]

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#59
post #44
post #10

Linus at DebConf 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=310&v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc&feature=yo... >I’m on a record saying, that maybe Valve will actually save the Linux desktop. And it’s actually not because I think games are important! I don't care, I don't play games. I think some people do, so games maybe important. But the really important issue is I guarantee you Valve will not make 15 different binaries. And I also guarant…

Unless we’re talking about embedded systems (and most of the time, not even then I’d guess for portable gaming devices for example), what is the actual drawback of these “huge” binaries? Wasn’t the reason to separate binaries and libraries in the first place to conserve disk space? They are then clearly versioned to signal that you can’t expect just any version of the library to work with the program you wrote. The t…

Shared libraries can reduce load time as they might already be in page cache. There’s also potential for a small impact in reduced instruction cache misses.

On the other side, link time optimization on static libraries allows deletion of unused functions and more aggressive inlining, so you might get that performance back and more.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#60
post #15

They would do better by sponsoring native GNU/Linux games, or even ports from other POSIX like platforms like Playstation/Android, instead of playing OS/2 with Windows games.

They actually did in the past, but they've realised that many game devs can't be trusted to maintain Linux builds as a second platform. They're often left outdated, require dependencies they didn't ship with or simply have worse performance than the Windows builds running on Proton. These days they check both builds if available and suggest the devs which one to use by default; often the Windows builds over Proton ar…

The same devs that most likely are also shipping Playstation or Android versions of their game....
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