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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#561

Post by polynox »

jasonhansel wrote: post #538
polynox wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I trust that when I drive over a bridge it won't collapse. But I cannot say I know that the bridge won't collapse. Knowledge is a true and justified belief. But trust is not a justification - quite the opposite. If you had a justification, you wouldn't need trust. Trust whomever you want, on whatever basis you want, but that's fundamentally not reason or rationality, it's just an argument from authority [1]. No state…

Isn't your citing Wikipedia, in itself, an appeal to authority? Why should we accept Wikipedia as an authority on which arguments are fallacious and which are rational? (Also, that wiki page mentions that many authors don't see it as a fallacy.)

I'm just citing it for the context of the argument both for and against appeal to authority being fallacious and irrational, not that Wikipedia is the final arbiter of what's rational or not. It's more to say that my position is not novel than anything else. Indeed, to be consistent I would need to say that I don't care how many authors do or don't see it as a fallacy :)

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#562

Post by xcrunner529 »

claytongulick wrote: post #558
xcrunner529 wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As others have pointed out, mortality counts were wildly off due to many factors, including how death certificates were filled out (died with covid v/s died from covid). This has never really been shown to be that accurate considering the excess deaths from the averages every year. You’re ignoring an inconvenient fact.

Which inconvenient fact am I ignoring? I took screen shots almost daily of all-cause mortality stats through the lockdown. The entire time it tracked pretty close to the expected linear increase that we see year over year with an aging population, with the exception of a bump in April that was almost exclusively New York City. Given the reported quality of care issues that drove a lot of that, there are still a lot o…

The data is easy to find.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-excess-deaths-...

I wonder what happened in 2020 and beyond that so many more died? It must just be the weather

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#563

Post by xcrunner529 »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #537
xcrunner529 wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I drove my car off a cliff to really stick it to society” What’s warmed my heart is most Covid deaths being from the unvaccinated. Clearing out the weak and stupid even sooner than natural causes.

> “I drove my car off a cliff to really stick it to society” Strawman. > What’s warmed my heart is most Covid deaths being from the unvaccinated. Clearing out the weak and stupid even sooner than natural causes. And the wailing and gnashing of teeth continues. You sound like a nasty, sick person xcrunner529. They don't make a jab for that. EDIT: I will give you the benefit of the doubt though, in the spirit of this w…

The vaccine has stayed just as effective for serious disease as it always was said. I am undeniably safer with the vaccine than without as I have actual family members who like you bought into the “vaccine bad” propaganda and died an early death from…COVID.

There really should be real life DARWIN awards.

The great thing, it’s mostly right wing voters dying. :)

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#564

Post by marcosdumay »

zmgsabst wrote: post #444
vannevar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

Okay, please explain my leap in logic: - I was curious - I went to OECD to get datasets for COVID, excess, and all mortality [1] - I subtracted COVID deaths from excess deaths to get “likely non-COVID excess deaths” - then I made a chart [2], showing the ratio of COVID to non-COVID; log-2 scale with a black line at zero (equal COVID and non-COVID) - I expected mostly COVID excess, like during the delta wave near the…

Ok, let's see.

Your graph does clearly have a peak at the 2020/2021 boundary, that falls down after the vaccines got widespread, by the middle of 2021 (with most countries going into negative excess deaths). There is another, smaller peak at the end of 2021, that's when omicron got widespread.

What exactly were you expecting to see?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#565

Post by Izkata »

ceejayoz wrote: post #553
Izkata wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it contradict it? These vaccines reduce symptoms without stopping infection/transmission -> you're helping yourself without helping the community -> it's the selfish action.

You can't argue asymptomatic spread isn't a thing, and then claim the vaccines are bad because they cause asymptomatic spread.

> > We've known this wasn't a thing for years, at least before these vaccines.

If I remember the timeline right it was mid/late 2020 we realized that assumption was wrong, then about a year later it was apparent the vaccines weren't stopping the spread. So yeah, my statements are entirely consistent: There wasn't before the vaccines, there was after.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#566

Post by Izkata »

lamontcg wrote: post #296
danhak wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

> a highly specious argument that the unvaccinated were putting other people at significant risk. The unvaccinated were filling up the hospitals which was putting other people at risk. Your right to gamble with your health ends when you expect to be able to get treatment if the gamble comes out badly.

> The unvaccinated were filling up the hospitals which was putting other people at risk.

Except that wasn't happening, and so much not happening that hospitals were reducing capacity. The emergency capacity built in early 2020 was dismantled after only a month or so and never brought back.

You can find individual hospitals reaching capacity all the time every year forever, but it was never the problem the news made it out to be. Current headlines include gasp hospitals at 80% capacity! ...Except that's normal. The more empty beds they have, the more money they lose - they try to run at around 80-90% full.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#567

Post by majormajor »

meindnoch wrote: post #409
blub wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been watching the vaccine discussions on HN these years and one can see that too many people are stuck fighting vaccination windmills from days gone by, while downplaying vaccine risks which by now are established and continue to be investigated as this publication shows. Meanwhile many EU countries have understood that heart problems are a real risk and have adjusted recommendations accordingly. They’ve also st…

It’s the paradox of intelligence: smart people are more prone to fight tooth and nail, and do all kinds of mental gymnastics, rather than to admit that they too have been misled. People of average or below average intelligence tend to accept it much more easily. I don’t know if there’s already a name for this phenomenon…

"Misled" is a stupid word for "we constantly learn more and should be adapting our positions."

There is zero evidence for a "haha i told you you were being misled" position. You are performing either foolish or disingenuous logical gymnastics to equate something like "adjusted recommendations accordingly" with "it was intentionally misleading the whole time."

Show me a place where people haven't adjusted their behavior as the virus has evolved, more time has passed creating more data, vaccination rounds have been administered, death rates have evolved, and exposure/infection has happened. It ain't here in liberal California, so is there any such strawman place you're arguing against in the US? Go out on the street and look around and observe that people are being rational and adapting over time instead of keeping up your silly little "haha i'm smarter than you you fell for a hoax" keyboard battle.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#568

Post by jancsika »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #504
vannevar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

My entire issue actually has nothing to do with health, and everything to do with authoritarianism. Before the vaccine mandates and coercion I had a seething hatred of corrupt and incompetent little tyrants in positions of power, afterward was nothing new, it just confirmed what I already knew about them. I don't care if I would have a statistically better outcome with the vaccine, I took great pleasure in standing u…

> I don't care if I would have a statistically better outcome with the vaccine, I took great pleasure in standing up and defying their bullying and coercion.

I don't understand this line of reasoning.

If one is being bullied and coerced into what you and I both consider to be the correct decision, one ought to a) make the correct decision, and then b) deal with the bullies?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#569

Post by Izkata »

hammock wrote: post #136
nluken wrote: post #65

"Interestingly, we recorded inflammatory foci predominantly in the right heart, which may suggest a gradual blood-stream derived dilution effect and based on this finding it is at least tempting to speculate that inadvertent intravascular vaccine injection may be contributive." Does this indicate that the authors believe aspirating the vaccine during administration would reduce the risk of myocarditis? I don't have a…

Yes. Complication from jab administration is something that has been widely discussed (not widely reported though). The clinical trials were supposed to show that the jab (and therefore the mRNA, and the resultant spike protein generated, which is known to be toxic) stayed in the muscle local to the injection site. What is widely speculated is that on some not-insubstantial portion of injections, the jab makes it int…

> The clinical trials were supposed to show that the jab (and therefore the mRNA, and the resultant spike protein generated, which is known to be toxic) stayed in the muscle local to the injection site.

They didn't. The data Pfizer released to the Japanese government showed that the lipid nanoparticle could be found all over the bodies of the test rats in hours. It's a small proportion of the overall shot, but the data only goes to 48 hours and in most areas (particularly the ovaries, which is what people kept calling out from this) it was still increasing.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#570

Post by LarryMullins »

kennend3 wrote: post #354
vfclists wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the doctors drowned in a river attempting to save his kids, yet the anti-vax group elect to leverage his tragedy for their narrative. One out of how many?

The number of doctors who "died" after getting their fourth dose is a moving target, but the article i posted did a bit of a breakdown: " The cluster of deaths back in the summer helped kindle what is now a fire — a conspiracy theory that today peddles a list of dozens of doctors online, including the three who died in July, as well as — according to its own descriptions — several who drowned, one who was in the midd…

Conflating "died from the vaccine" with "died with the vaccine". Quite ironic!
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