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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#481

Post by Izkata »

driggs wrote: post #408
ceejayoz wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because vaccination prevents you from spreading covid to others... I agree with your general point, but to be clear, it likely reduces your chances of doing that, to some extent. It does not prevent you from spreading COVID.

If vaccination prevents you from catching covid, then it has prevented you from spreading covid to those you would have otherwise. If vaccination causes you to experience an early immune response, versus several asymptomatic days while unknowingly contagious, then it has prevented you from spreading covid to some of those you would have otherwise. If vaccination results in a less severe infection with lower viral loa…

> If vaccination prevents you from catching covid, then it has prevented you from spreading covid to those you would have otherwise.

Depends on what you mean by "covid" here. If you're referring to the virus, then no - this is a misconception. The vaccines at best only reduce symptoms, they don't stop infection or transmission.

> versus several asymptomatic days while unknowingly contagious

This was also an early guess that turned out to be wrong. We've known this wasn't a thing for years, at least before these vaccines.

> My reply was intentionally simple in order to drive home a point about selfish versus societal viewpoints.

Right now, getting vaccinated is the selfish action because it's likely to turn you into an asymptomatic spreader. At least when unvaccinated you'll know to stay home.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#482

Post by Izkata »

zmgsabst wrote: post #444
vannevar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

Okay, please explain my leap in logic: - I was curious - I went to OECD to get datasets for COVID, excess, and all mortality [1] - I subtracted COVID deaths from excess deaths to get “likely non-COVID excess deaths” - then I made a chart [2], showing the ratio of COVID to non-COVID; log-2 scale with a black line at zero (equal COVID and non-COVID) - I expected mostly COVID excess, like during the delta wave near the…

What are the overlapping curves here? Different age groups, different countries, something else?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#483

Post by lmm »

ethanbond wrote: post #467
lmm wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has this kind of vaccine mandate (for everyday life, not for travel) ever been imposed before? I remember the possibility of denying public services (e.g. schooling) to children who weren't vaccinated against measles being discussed but being extremely controversial, and that was for a vaccine that was far more reliable and well-tested.

Which mandate are you talking about?

Requiring restaurants/gyms/etc. to require customers to be vaccinated.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#484

Post by Izkata »

kyleblarson wrote: post #308
vannevar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

I think a lot of the resentment comes out of "the experts" changing their narratives a dozen times about the efficacy of the vaccines over the last 3 years while browbeating anyone who voiced any amount of skepticism.

> efficacy of the vaccines over the last 3 years

It's only been 2 years, they were announced at the end of 2020.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#485

Post by sdnas211 »

SnowProblem wrote: post #253

Why is it so hard to find data showing how often people are dying, no matter the cause, broken down by vaccination status and age? Surely that would help clear things up. Lots of countries publish COVID-19 mortality rates which show benefits for vaccinated but that's really not helpful for understanding overall risk of vaccines. The UK is the only country I could find that publishes this data and unless I'm missing s…

That is showing the raw numbers - they aren't adjusted for vaccinated/unvaccinated population sizes. ~53 million people have had at least one shot, and there are around 6 million children under 10 (so not counted in the figures you linked). With a population of about 68 million total, the unvaccinated all causes figures should be about 16% of the ever vaccinated.

The ratio should skew further in older age ranges, as a higher proportion of those were vaccinated.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#486

Post by kitsunesoba »

CadmiumYellow wrote: post #430
kitsunesoba wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember, COVID hasn't been shown to be particularly dangerous to young people... Having seen the impact of covid on young family members and others in my extended social circles, I believe that there's a long tail of effects that we won't be able to see the full picture of for years to come. There's a lot more that should be considered in the decision than just risk of death.

Something I've been wondering about: has anybody tried to separate out the effects of the pandemic itself from the symptoms of long covid? So many of the symptoms of long covid are incredibly nonspecific. I believe there was a study on long covid patients that found that the only long covid symptom that had a significant correlation with actually having tested positive for covid was loss of smell and taste. There is…

I don't have links handy, but I remember seeing studies that show brain aging on the order of ~10 years in long covid patients reporting brain fog. That could also be a result of sedentary living as a result of the lockdown, it seems unlikely that it'd be that severe given the length of time involved.

As far as I know the leading theory is that damage to the circulation systems of some covid patients is causing a reduction in the quality of bloodflow in the brain which has obvious negative impacts on neurons.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#487

Post by Bud »

kyleblarson wrote: post #308
vannevar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

I think a lot of the resentment comes out of "the experts" changing their narratives a dozen times about the efficacy of the vaccines over the last 3 years while browbeating anyone who voiced any amount of skepticism.

No part of this happened. Also, experts are actually experts, so let's lose the quotation marks.

Please cite instances of "browbeating" from Fauci or other prominent public health figures. Please support this wild story in, well, any way at all.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#488

Post by chromatin »

marvin wrote: post #425
meindnoch wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the paradox of intelligence: smart people are more prone to fight tooth and nail, and do all kinds of mental gymnastics, rather than to admit that they too have been misled. People of average or below average intelligence tend to accept it much more easily. I don’t know if there’s already a name for this phenomenon…

Would love to see the incidence of this by IQ. My intuition says it spikes in slightly smarter-than-average folks.

This is the so-called "midwit" meme.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/iq-bell-curve-midwit

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#489

Post by adamiscool8 »

Eisenstein wrote: post #458
adamiscool8 wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conscription is a good example of a social burden unfairly dispersed and widely objected to — at least in the West. My point is the underpinning of this “one more mandatory intervention is no big deal” view is not based on reality. The State stopped forcing irreversible interventions on adults when eugenics went out of (polite) fashion. The belief compulsory acts are normal and good policy is based on something like…

You make a very good point, but like in times of invasion where conscription is something I would argue is necessary, in times of other emergency then there is the possibility we must give up some independence of our person and perform compulsory acts. This may not be as obvious as getting a needle jabbed into your arm, but rationing water and food, joining in labor to clear wreckage/debris or rebuild, or taking arms…

The problem with that line of thinking, to me, is we have state apparatuses fully and ever-increasingly capable of manufacturing crises to compel individuals in ways that would otherwise not be acceptable. On top of that, I see a qualitative difference between a compulsion of labor or rations impeding bodily autonomy in a superficial sense, and the compulsion of injections (or lobotomies, or sterilization) which seems to strike a deeper and more serious infringement on bodily integrity. Given those factors, I think it's very crucial that societal decisionmakers err towards preserving individual independence and are not misleadingly guided towards other ends.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#490

Post by addingadimensio »

udp wrote: post #239
addingadimensio wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still get Covid after you are vaccinated. Fun fact if you are vaccinated before you catch Covid you cannot develop an immunity to the nucleocapsid is this good is this bad I don’t know tune in in 10 years when we know more

> if you are vaccinated before you catch Covid you cannot develop an immunity to the nucleocapsid Do you have a reference?

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