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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#421

Post by puffoflogic »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #70
librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

> but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common? You forgot to account for the risk of getting the virus. If you choose to get the vaccine, the probability is 1. But what's the probability of getting Covid? Definitely less than 1. For certain age groups (young men), the risk of complications * probability of getting the vaccine (1) was more than the risk of compli…

You forgot to add in the risks of getting COVID and being vaccinated. Every time anyone "does the math" on this somehow they count the vaccine as having 100% efficacy, which is an obvious lie.

Also, if you choose to get the vaccine, then the multiplier for vaccine risks isn't 1, it's 2, or 4, or 6, however many times you get the vaccine.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#422

Post by stainablesteel »

librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

yeah that's reasonable, and a perfect way to do it is to go by age groups

covid is hurting/killing people who are weak, elderly, and immunocompromised. So covid is the bigger worry here, they should get vaccinated

young kids mostly don't even notice they have covid, and young people in general, ~<30 y/o, don't have any issues from covid. So the vaccine is a bigger risk, and the natural immunity they gain from getting the disease is more advantageous than the vaccine ever would be for their demographic

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#423

Post by enaaem »

danhak wrote: post #327
ajross wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. But... the government has been doing that for decades and decades, since the very invention of the vaccine! Why is that "The Issue" when there's suddenly a pandemic and it's important, vs. when you needed to show your vaccination records to join the military or go to sc…

What about my position seems insincere to you? You see no philosophical difference between the government mandating vaccination records for schools and public institutions like the military vs. them mandating vaccination records for private establishments such as gyms, irrespective of the wishes of the owners of those establishments? Should the government have the right to mandate vaccination records for entry to a p…

Pandemics are not a private issue. It's similar to a war. It can kill a significant percent of the population and it requires collective action to stop it.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#424

Post by s1artibartfast »

Mawr wrote: post #386
shagie wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That first part is a mistaken belief. There's also a useful metric for the "chance of dying" - it's known as a micromort. Each micromort is a one in a million chance of dying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort A fair bit of statistical work has been done on COVID-19 and it is summarized in the wikipedia article. AstraZeneca vaccination against COVID-19 – 2.9 micromorts[31] COVID-19 infection at age 10 – 20 micro…

> "Converting this to micromort language, an individual living in New York City has experienced roughly 50 additional micromorts of risk per day because of Covid-19. That means you were roughly twice as likely to die as you would have been if you were serving in the U.S. armed forces in Afghanistan throughout 2010, a particularly deadly year." This is highly misleading. The average individual may be at such risk, jus…

This exactly. You would want to see the micromort breakdown for the same populations as covid infection. You might also want to dive deeper and see if there's more specific populations and how they compare.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#425

Post by marvin »

meindnoch wrote: post #409
blub wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been watching the vaccine discussions on HN these years and one can see that too many people are stuck fighting vaccination windmills from days gone by, while downplaying vaccine risks which by now are established and continue to be investigated as this publication shows. Meanwhile many EU countries have understood that heart problems are a real risk and have adjusted recommendations accordingly. They’ve also st…

It’s the paradox of intelligence: smart people are more prone to fight tooth and nail, and do all kinds of mental gymnastics, rather than to admit that they too have been misled. People of average or below average intelligence tend to accept it much more easily. I don’t know if there’s already a name for this phenomenon…

Would love to see the incidence of this by IQ. My intuition says it spikes in slightly smarter-than-average folks.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#426

Post by pianoben »

hammock wrote: post #118
pianoben wrote: post #93

> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Sample size of 25 out of a population of... how many tens of millions of young (EDIT: not actually young) men? Seems quite small, and perhaps not sufficient to draw any conclusions. I wonder what the results will show... > myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2…

>the authors offer no real ideas about how the damage could have happened They do, though. In fact that's the entirely novel value that this study brings. It's in the title: "histopathological characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination." That's a lot of words that means "we can now tell you exactly what microscopic tissue looks like following lethal jab-associated myocarditis.” And the scientis…

> And the scientists discuss how it happens. For your benefit, I'll describe it here.

Condescension noted :)

You've described what I understand to be a common(-ly presented online) hypothesis about how an mRNA vaccine might injure heart tissue. The study authors, on the other hand, don't claim that this is how any of the study subjects died. Indeed they explicitly disclaim any causal link between an mRNA vaccine and incidences of myocarditis.

Allow me to rephrase, then - "the authors offer no real ideas about how the Covid vaccines could have caused this damage".

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#427

Post by lamontcg »

cnelsenmilt wrote: post #337
woodruffw wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely not a standard name, but I call kind of reasoning error "active/passive bias": we're generally much more afraid of risks that manifest from action (mauled by a shark while swimming, getting in a car crash) than inaction (dying of obesity, getting hit by a car on the sidewalk). In the case of COVID-19: you have to actively get the vaccine, meaning that people overweight its risks relative to the risks…

I think you're right, and an additional factor is that the vaccine is tangible and certain where the virus is invisible and may or may not be present in any given situation (and in unknown quantity).

At its core it may be more that people can't think past binary logic. Either something works or it doesn't work. Either something is perfectly safe or it is too risky. But that doesn't address why they don't apply the same logic to the virus itself (although there are some people on the flip side who still do).

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#428

Post by [deleted] »

enaaem wrote: post #423
danhak wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about my position seems insincere to you? You see no philosophical difference between the government mandating vaccination records for schools and public institutions like the military vs. them mandating vaccination records for private establishments such as gyms, irrespective of the wishes of the owners of those establishments? Should the government have the right to mandate vaccination records for entry to a p…

Pandemics are not a private issue. It's similar to a war. It can kill a significant percent of the population and it requires collective action to stop it.

[deleted]

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#429

Post by [deleted] »

treeman79 wrote: post #321
nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

Wife got shot. Few days later her arm swelled up. 2 years later it still is. Her and I had already had Covid from before the vaccine. Absolutely refused to get it because of that. She now regrets it. She still gets Covid with every outbreak anyway. So doesn’t seem to have helped. I know a couple of kids that got it and have clots in their brains now. Less sure on timeline on these. But I’ve not seen this before. Sure…

[deleted]

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#430

Post by CadmiumYellow »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #108
Mikeb85 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common? You forgot to account for the risk of getting the virus. If you choose to get the vaccine, the probability is 1. But what's the probability of getting Covid? Definitely less than 1. For certain age groups (young men), the risk of complications * probability of getting the vaccine (1) was more than the risk of compli…

> Remember, COVID hasn't been shown to be particularly dangerous to young people... Having seen the impact of covid on young family members and others in my extended social circles, I believe that there's a long tail of effects that we won't be able to see the full picture of for years to come. There's a lot more that should be considered in the decision than just risk of death.

Something I've been wondering about: has anybody tried to separate out the effects of the pandemic itself from the symptoms of long covid? So many of the symptoms of long covid are incredibly nonspecific. I believe there was a study on long covid patients that found that the only long covid symptom that had a significant correlation with actually having tested positive for covid was loss of smell and taste. There is a lot of evidence that social isolation and sedentary lifestyles are detrimental to our health and we now live in a world where loads of people barely left the house or spoke to anyone other than their immediate family members for the better part of two years. We're seeing widespread effects throughout society in everything from education to crime to the amount of violent incidents on airplanes. It's likely that millions of people who do not have long covid are currently in some form of mental health crisis related to the pandemic. Overdose deaths and suicides are up. I wonder how many people started the pandemic with no major covid risk factor and now have a risk factor such as obesity or diabetes that can be directly linked to the psychosocial effects of the pandemic.

I'm not suggesting that long covid doesn't exist, but I wonder how much of that long tail of effects can actually be causally linked to covid infection (obviously not talking about things like lung damage, though I do wonder if stress and isolation could have affected previously healthy people's immune systems). My personal experience with mental health issues suggests that they can have severe and wide-ranging physical effects that are as bad as any disease.

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