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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#321

Post by treeman79 »

nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

Wife got shot. Few days later her arm swelled up. 2 years later it still is. Her and I had already had Covid from before the vaccine. Absolutely refused to get it because of that. She now regrets it. She still gets Covid with every outbreak anyway. So doesn’t seem to have helped.

I know a couple of kids that got it and have clots in their brains now. Less sure on timeline on these. But I’ve not seen this before.

Sure it could all be coincidence.

then there’s all the assholes who decided that get the vaccine or become unemployed.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#322

Post by cool_dude85 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #307
cool_dude85 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a weird way of demonstrating a link. They picked them specifically for that, it can't be evidence of something. If they selected 25 people who died of myocarditis regardless of vaccination status or recency, and all 25 turned out to have been recently vaccinated, that would be scary data. It's perfectly valid as an idea, although a lot of statistical work would need to be done to show that it wasn't just hap…

> Consider a depoliticized example: you do 30 autopsies on people who had recently been to a particular location, let's say a certain grocery store in town. Enough people go to this grocery store that it's not uncommon for way more than 30 recent visitors to be dead unexpectedly by random chance. Further, let's say in the general population, a tiny fraction of people die of a certain food-borne illness. You have a pr…

>You've picked 30 people who died after eating at the grocery store's salad bar, and used that as evidence that the salad bar is dangerous, without checking how many skipped the salad bar and died anyways.

The answer to this question would also be socially and politically relevant and warrant its own study. But that doesn't make the author's study unsound or unable to serve as evidence, like you said.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#323

Post by [deleted] »

ajross wrote: post #319
danhak wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

> the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. But... the government has been doing that for decades and decades, since the very invention of the vaccine! Why is that "The Issue" when there's suddenly a pandemic and it's important, vs. when you needed to show your vaccination records to join the military or go to sc…

[deleted]

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#324

Post by seydor »

ren_engineer wrote: post #302
librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

>For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? a huge chunk of the population already got covid during the entire year no vaccine existed and have natural immunity, so that's not really a factor at this point. The risk of getti…

> during the entire year no vaccine existed and have natural immunity,

That's not true anymore. Recent variants dont induce a lot of immunity that s why reinfections are common. In fact the opposite is true in some cases

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abq1841

That said, the vaccines don't prevent infection either

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#325

Post by nradov »

woodruffw wrote: post #312
nradov wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination has only limited and temporary effects in reducing the risk of transmission. I would encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated but this does very little to prevent it from spreading in society . https://doi.org/10.1056/nejmoa2116597

Spread is just one social effect. I think the GP meant that there are plenty of other civic motivations, like not overloading medical institutions and minimizing the extent to which society needs to be halted to prevent particularly harmful spread.

By all means I would encourage everyone eligible to get vaccinated. But there was never any valid reason to halt society in the first place, so your comment is a non sequitur.

Even before the COVID-19 pandemic, it was routine for medical institutions to be overwhelmed by respiratory viruses. We didn't halt society, we just accepted the consequences and moved on.

https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patie...

https://peterattiamd.com/covid-19-current-state-omicron/

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#326

Post by AnimalMuppet »

putnambr wrote: post #112
Mikeb85 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common? You forgot to account for the risk of getting the virus. If you choose to get the vaccine, the probability is 1. But what's the probability of getting Covid? Definitely less than 1. For certain age groups (young men), the risk of complications * probability of getting the vaccine (1) was more than the risk of compli…

From OC: > wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? For certain demographics the probability of getting infected might be that low, but at least in every social young adult I know, the risk is averaged to well over 1.0. I've been infected twice, before and after the jab, and in both cas…

> but at least in every social young adult I know, the risk is averaged to well over 1.0.

But the rate of being vaccinated is also over 1.0, since people keep getting boosters.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#327

Post by danhak »

ajross wrote: post #319
danhak wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

> the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. But... the government has been doing that for decades and decades, since the very invention of the vaccine! Why is that "The Issue" when there's suddenly a pandemic and it's important, vs. when you needed to show your vaccination records to join the military or go to sc…

What about my position seems insincere to you?

You see no philosophical difference between the government mandating vaccination records for schools and public institutions like the military vs. them mandating vaccination records for private establishments such as gyms, irrespective of the wishes of the owners of those establishments?

Should the government have the right to mandate vaccination records for entry to a private home, irrespective of the wishes of the homeowner?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#328

Post by nulld3v »

vfclists wrote: post #305
nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. In four patients who received a mRNA vaccination, we identified acute (epi-)myocarditis without detection of another significant disease or health constellation that may have caused an unexpected death. Myocarditis was found in 4 out of 25 people who had received the vaccine and died w…

> What are the odds of any 4 out 25 people with no record of any related illness dying of myocarditis.

Note that I'm not saying vaccines do not cause myocarditis, I'm saying that even if vaccines may cause myocarditis but cause fewer myocarditis cases than COVID deaths, then it is still worth vaccinating.

> Where is the evidence of this, given that many governments have withdrawn the vaccines or even banned for them for young people, a category you probably fall into?

Hence my next sentence right?

> My position depends on us having a good understanding of the vaccine's effects however, and right now I feel like we don't.

That said, although I didn't mention it in my comment, my current understanding of the statistics does make me believe that the vaccine causes less cases of myocarditis than COVID deaths.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#329

Post by bombcar »

lamontcg wrote: post #296
danhak wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

> a highly specious argument that the unvaccinated were putting other people at significant risk. The unvaccinated were filling up the hospitals which was putting other people at risk. Your right to gamble with your health ends when you expect to be able to get treatment if the gamble comes out badly.

> Your right to gamble with your health ends when you expect to be able to get treatment if the gamble comes out badly.

I wonder how that would apply to obesity and unprotected sex.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#330

Post by [deleted] »

ethanbond wrote: post #244
danhak wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

You don't get to dismiss an argument by just declaring that it "didn't pass the smell test." That guidance was exactly in line with every counter-pathogen campaign since, Idk, before germ theory?

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