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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#301

Post by nradov »

driggs wrote: post #254
tempsy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so if you believe your chance of dying of covid is improbably small due to age and overall health, why is it necessary to be vaccinated even if there's only a small chance of side effects? Rare is not zero. I don't even take OTC pain killers like advil unless I absolutely feel like I have to.

Quoted post unavailable.

Vaccination has only limited and temporary effects in reducing the risk of transmission. I would encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated but this does very little to prevent it from spreading in society.

https://doi.org/10.1056/nejmoa2116597

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#302

Post by ren_engineer »

librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

>For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid?

a huge chunk of the population already got covid during the entire year no vaccine existed and have natural immunity, so that's not really a factor at this point. The risk of getting covid for them is already baked into the calculation because they got it when there was no other option. They can now decide whether the additional risk of the vaccine is worth it

you can't even make the case for mandates based on "stopping the spread" anymore because the vaccines failed at that as well, so it's no longer a public health issue and becomes a personal health decision. Or at least it should be

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#303

Post by skissane »

vannevar wrote: post #144
nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

> The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is.

In some cases, it may well be true that the vaccine is a greater risk than the virus. For example, in Australia, the official recommendation is that healthy people under 30 not receive a fourth dose of COVID-19 vaccine, since Australian health officials believe the risk from vaccine side effects (such as myocarditis) in that age group outweighs the risk of COVID-19 itself. [0] Furthermore, for healthy people in the 30-49 age group, the official Australian position on fourth doses is "permitted but not recommended", since it is unclear if the risk of COVID-19 is greater than that of the vaccine. This is different from the recommendations made by a number of other countries (US, UK, Canada, Singapore), but it appears Australian health authorities weigh the risk of vaccination side effects versus the risk of COVID-19 differently than they do.

[0] https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-you-won-t-get-another-co...

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#304

Post by gjsman-1000 »

lamontcg wrote: post #296
danhak wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

> a highly specious argument that the unvaccinated were putting other people at significant risk. The unvaccinated were filling up the hospitals which was putting other people at risk. Your right to gamble with your health ends when you expect to be able to get treatment if the gamble comes out badly.

Well... the awkward part about this is right now, it is now the opposite problem.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/07/opinion/environment/covid...

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20221127/more-vaccinated-peo...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/23/vaccinate...

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#305

Post by vfclists »

nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. In four patients who received a mRNA vaccination, we identified acute (epi-)myocarditis without detection of another significant disease or health constellation that may have caused an unexpected death.

Myocarditis was found in 4 out of 25 people who had received the vaccine and died within 25 days of it, and none had showed any sign of related disease.

What are the odds of any 4 out 25 people in the age range of the group with no record of any related illness having acute myocarditis?

It is so typical of HN that your vapid comment should rise to the top.

> Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause mortality/harm in some cases. As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go.

Where is the evidence of this, given that many governments have withdrawn the vaccines or even banned for them for young people, a category you probably fall into?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#306

Post by woodruffw »

lamontcg wrote: post #294
tempsy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so if you believe your chance of dying of covid is improbably small due to age and overall health, why is it necessary to be vaccinated even if there's only a small chance of side effects? Rare is not zero. I don't even take OTC pain killers like advil unless I absolutely feel like I have to.

Because the risk of e.g. dying of myocarditis from the virus still exceeds the risk of dying of myocarditis from the vaccine. Particularly with the mRNA vaccines there isn't much in the vaccine that isn't in the virus already. There has to be a name for this fallacy. It is like we're living in the dark ages where contracting covid is just "God's will" and it doesn't count in risk assessments, while no matter how smal…

It's definitely not a standard name, but I call kind of reasoning error "active/passive bias": we're generally much more afraid of risks that manifest from action (mauled by a shark while swimming, getting in a car crash) than inaction (dying of obesity, getting hit by a car on the sidewalk).

In the case of COVID-19: you have to actively get the vaccine, meaning that people overweight its risks relative to the risks latent in not getting it.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#307

Post by ceejayoz »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #293
ceejayoz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In general, a causal link between myocarditis and anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination is supported by several considerations: (A) a close temporal relation to vaccination; all cases were found dead within one week after vaccination... > Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. This is a weird way of demonstrating a link. They picked…

>This is a weird way of demonstrating a link. They picked them specifically for that, it can't be evidence of something. If they selected 25 people who died of myocarditis regardless of vaccination status or recency, and all 25 turned out to have been recently vaccinated, that would be scary data. It's perfectly valid as an idea, although a lot of statistical work would need to be done to show that it wasn't just hap…

> Consider a depoliticized example: you do 30 autopsies on people who had recently been to a particular location, let's say a certain grocery store in town. Enough people go to this grocery store that it's not uncommon for way more than 30 recent visitors to be dead unexpectedly by random chance. Further, let's say in the general population, a tiny fraction of people die of a certain food-borne illness. You have a pretty good guess what that fraction is.

It's not just "pick 30 recently dead who went to the store", though.

You've picked 30 people who died after eating at the grocery store's salad bar, and used that as evidence that the salad bar is dangerous, without checking how many skipped the salad bar and died anyways.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#308

Post by kyleblarson »

vannevar wrote: post #144
nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll d…

I think a lot of the resentment comes out of "the experts" changing their narratives a dozen times about the efficacy of the vaccines over the last 3 years while browbeating anyone who voiced any amount of skepticism.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#309

Post by seydor »

librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

I took 3 doses of vaccine but it is no longer effective at preventing infections. Studies that keep coming out show that Covid can have a lot of damaging consequences every time you get infected and they accumulate (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02051-3). I have a job and lifestyle that allows me to limit crowded spaces by a lot during wintertime. I will try to avoid getting covid ever again as much as possible, and the vaccine doesn't help much in that. I think the danger from vaccine is very small, but , as in everything, i want to wait a few years before i can trust it.

But to those that plan to get immunized by simply getting Covid again I 'd say "good luck" because they are going to need it

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#310

Post by vfclists »

driggs wrote: post #254
tempsy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so if you believe your chance of dying of covid is improbably small due to age and overall health, why is it necessary to be vaccinated even if there's only a small chance of side effects? Rare is not zero. I don't even take OTC pain killers like advil unless I absolutely feel like I have to.

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