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'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

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Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#91

Post by outworlder »

rayiner wrote: post #75
maxklein wrote: post #21

For people like me who are afraid of flying, this lady is just disturbing the peace. People should be searched before being let on planes. If people are not searched, there will be more plane attacks and global transport will decline. Planes will always be targets for terrorists because of what they represent. The law is not about technicalities. It's about reason and sense, and sensible is that when someone is behav…

Take a look at airport security in Israel sometime. They don't have this silly invasive rigamarole that we do. They have highly trained agents that observe peoples' behavior to look for suspicious events. If they search someone, then it's because they have reasonable cause. We don't want to do that because it's expensive to do it right. So we have the TSA, which is just a jobs program for the most unskilled folks in…

Everyone mentions Israel, but have you actually been there? I am curious about what would happen, should you get singled out for "enhanced screening" there by their staff.

Prior to 9/11, I went to Japan on vacation. The security made it look like it was a domestic flight, not a 24-hour one. Me and my sister got pulled from the line and led to a small room, with dozens of people.

We were only let go 4 hours later (after 27 hours flying, that wasn't exactly pleasant). And that's only because they were checking our story with out uncle, who was a native Japanese and went looking for us when we didn't show up at the airport.

And don't even get started on their multiple-page form, in Spanish. I asked for an English version because I couldn't figure it out (I am Brazilian, so they probably figured it was ok).

Also, my posessions got searched and I even got inquired about my religious beliefs - there was a postcard from my grandmother to my aunt which had a christian image. I guess that sort of thing would not happen in the US - at least not to a citizen, anyway.

Needless to say, while I loved the country, I hate the screening to this day.

In the US, a couple of years ago, something similar happened. I got pulled to the "yellow room", because my fingerprint didn't match the Visa (my brother's went on the record insted, probably due to confusion, as our names are similar). In any case, I was let go in a couple of minutes, after the officer inquired who the guy showing on the monitor was, and I pointed to my brother waiting a few meters from us. No idea what would have happened if I wasn't travelling with him tho.

He also mentioned I will always have that problem (until the Visa expires, that is). But, even with all these "enhanced measures", I'll still rather take my chances with the US if I have a choice.

Disclaimer: that was before the full-body scanners and the enhanced patdowns were in place at the particular airport I went to.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#92

Post by troels »

dpkendal wrote: post #8
troels wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This text is from 2001. Also, the guy is a gal.

I don't believe that's true. It's dated October 17, 2011. (I agree about the gender of the author, though.)

You're right. I swear it read 2001 the first time I looked!

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#93

Post by peterwwillis »

tptacek wrote: post #76

This isn't just a DailyKos story about the TSA on the front page of HN. It's a stupid DailyKos story on the front page of HN. It actually demeans well-reasoned, carefully-considered strong objections to the TSA by presenting a categorically bogus objection. Here's a person who's memorized the 4th Amendment without actually learning what it means, yelling it at the airport in a one-person demonstration, and then doing…

Granted, the way she went about it was borderline retarded. Are you saying you agree with the way she was treated by TSA and police? Or will you concede that perhaps this act of defiance (however misguided) was much more productive than the silent consent all of us give every time we shuffle through the cattle stocks?

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#94

Post by tptacek »

peterwwillis wrote: post #93
tptacek wrote: post #76

This isn't just a DailyKos story about the TSA on the front page of HN. It's a stupid DailyKos story on the front page of HN. It actually demeans well-reasoned, carefully-considered strong objections to the TSA by presenting a categorically bogus objection. Here's a person who's memorized the 4th Amendment without actually learning what it means, yelling it at the airport in a one-person demonstration, and then doing…

Granted, the way she went about it was borderline retarded. Are you saying you agree with the way she was treated by TSA and police? Or will you concede that perhaps this act of defiance (however misguided) was much more productive than the silent consent all of us give every time we shuffle through the cattle stocks?

No, this act of defiance was counterproductive, since it paints reasonable people with the same lunatic brush and is based on an illogical and ignorant argument.

But I don't so much care about ineffective vanity protests as I do about the fact that a DailyKos article about one was on the front page of HN. Which is why I flagged the story, and think you should too.

Stories like this are a trap. Most of us, being reasonable, logical people, have a litany of valid arguments against the TSA. A story like this confirms those beliefs and is conflated with them, so that pointing out that the story (a) sucks and (b) isn't germane to HN is taken as an argument against the beliefs, and not just the story.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#95

Post by anamax »

jbooth wrote: post #27
anamax wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These stupid things are also incredibly brave and necessary. Suppose she had started reciting[1] the 10 commandments or jabberwocky? Would you have had the same reaction? If you go with "the US constitution is relevant" then she's got a problem. She claims that she didn't resist a search. That can only be true if she thinks that reciting US constitution clauses on search aren't relevant to the situation, namely a s…

I'm trying to wrap my head around this comment. The 4th amendment guards against unreasonable search and seizure. And you're saying "shame on her for refusing a search"?

> And you're saying "shame on her for refusing a search"?

No, I'm not. I'm saying that if you think that reciting the 4th amendment when going through TSA is relevant, that relevance would lead a reasonable person to believe that she was resisting the search.

I mention relevance because commenters are suggesting that reciting the 4th amendment is meaningful in a way that reciting jabberwocky would not have been.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#96

Post by eternalban »

revdinosaur wrote: post #41
eternalban wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSA groping your children is "antisocial". So pray tell us where you plan to take "legal" political action on this matter? Or is your "right-wing domestic terrorist" remark indicative of your actually buying into this theatre?

Actually, her behavior (and narrative) is similar to that of "sovereign citizen" types who imbue all sorts of psuedo-legal meaning to the U.S. Constitution and what they think it allows them to do. Not all sovereign citizen groups are violent but there were two police officers murdered in TX in 2010 and several militias operating under this philosophy.

State craft is complex and messy business, agreed. The government of Assad is currently facing "militias" in Homs and has the same precise pov as you. (It's reasonable; I'm not, repeat, blind to the burden of just rule.)

But I myself, as an American citizen, strongly object to the continued attacks on my natural rights and these "solutions" that consistently erode the limits placed on the State powers.

We had a revolution in this country precisely to determine the balance between natural "rights" and collective "laws". The United States of America has precisely ZERO input on what is "allowed" as far as Natural Rights are concerned. USA may provide privileges.

I myself, for example, was "sold" the following story before I elected to become a naturalized citizen of USA: "Inalienable Rights". That sounded (and still does) just right for me -- I happen to agree very strongly with the idea. But now, n years into this contract, and the USA (and some citizens such as yourself) are now telling me that I have no rights unless that it is "allowed" by the USA.

So, was I scammed (in your eminent "legal" opinion)?

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#97

Post by jbooth »

anamax wrote: post #95
jbooth wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this comment. The 4th amendment guards against unreasonable search and seizure. And you're saying "shame on her for refusing a search"?

> And you're saying "shame on her for refusing a search"? No, I'm not. I'm saying that if you think that reciting the 4th amendment when going through TSA is relevant, that relevance would lead a reasonable person to believe that she was resisting the search. I mention relevance because commenters are suggesting that reciting the 4th amendment is meaningful in a way that reciting jabberwocky would not have been.

OF COURSE it's meaningful in a way that reciting jabberwocky would not have been. Reading the part of the constitution which protects people from unreasonable searches without probable cause, while being forced to undergo a search without probable cause.

If it's still unclear how the amendment is meaningful in this situation, I'm going to ask that you go re-read the original article, then "letters from birmingham jail" and the whole bill of rights.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#98

Post by MoreMoschops »

cafard wrote: post #87
MoreMoschops wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inconvenience IS the glamour of martyrdom. If the TSA had calmly and politely carried out the hands-on search as she recited the constitution, there would have been no effect. No inconvenience, no martyr.

Quite. But now rewrite the article to take out reduce it to the facts not including her psychological/physiological state (effects of handcuffs on wrists OK, relevant; perspiration rate not really.) Does it read differently?

"But now rewrite the article to take out reduce it to the facts not including her psychological/physiological state (effects of handcuffs on wrists OK, relevant; perspiration rate not really.) "

If you rewrite this to make sense, I'll give it a go :)

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#99

Post by peterwwillis »

tptacek wrote: post #94
peterwwillis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted, the way she went about it was borderline retarded. Are you saying you agree with the way she was treated by TSA and police? Or will you concede that perhaps this act of defiance (however misguided) was much more productive than the silent consent all of us give every time we shuffle through the cattle stocks?

No, this act of defiance was counterproductive , since it paints reasonable people with the same lunatic brush and is based on an illogical and ignorant argument. But I don't so much care about ineffective vanity protests as I do about the fact that a DailyKos article about one was on the front page of HN. Which is why I flagged the story, and think you should too. Stories like this are a trap. Most of us, being reas…

I wasn't aware I was supposed to flag every DailyKos story (I honestly have no idea wtf that site is). So, i'm sorry for not doing that.

I resent your smug sense of superiority. I am a reasonable, logical person but I don't have a carefully structured and researched legal paper to present as to why the TSA's policies should be reformed. I just know they're assholes and they fuck with me for no good reason. Clearly this woman realized that too and she decided not to stand for it. The fact that she didn't do it well enough does not discount the action in itself, nor does it prove or disprove any other argument against the TSA.

Furthermore, by flagging this story with the reasons you listed you're basically saying the HN readership is so stupid that by reading this article it will debunk any other arguments they have heard or will hear. That basically you're protecting the brainless HN readers from the ideas presented therein, or are protecting people from reading this and forming a negative view of "valid" TSA arguments from "reasonable, logical people."

There is a deeper lesson to take away than just whether her argument was legally valid. For example, take the reasons that you feel are right and take a stand the way she did.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#100

Post by tptacek »

peterwwillis wrote: post #99
tptacek wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this act of defiance was counterproductive , since it paints reasonable people with the same lunatic brush and is based on an illogical and ignorant argument. But I don't so much care about ineffective vanity protests as I do about the fact that a DailyKos article about one was on the front page of HN. Which is why I flagged the story, and think you should too. Stories like this are a trap. Most of us, being reas…

I wasn't aware I was supposed to flag every DailyKos story (I honestly have no idea wtf that site is). So, i'm sorry for not doing that. I resent your smug sense of superiority. I am a reasonable, logical person but I don't have a carefully structured and researched legal paper to present as to why the TSA's policies should be reformed. I just know they're assholes and they fuck with me for no good reason. Clearly th…

You should read the site guidelines before deciding that I'm commenting out of a sense of smug superiority and not out of general concern for the quality of the site.

I think you should also analyze the fact that this story got you so emotionally invested that the site guidelines didn't occur to you, and that you managed to feel threatened simply because someone questioned the story --- which, again, is pretty obvious vapid. What you're saying in this comment is, "The TSA is bad, so why bother thinking?"

That stories like this tend to have that effect on message board communities is the reason they're proscribed in the site guidelines. There are other communities where a story like this would find a more receptive audience, like Reddit Politics.

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