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'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

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Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#71

Post by phaus »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #62
phaus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think that she is fighting the good fight on behalf of humanity. She is a professional writer who did this as a publicity stunt so she could write about the experience afterwards. Her biggest accomplishment is that she managed to make one of the scummiest organizations in the United States appear to be in the right. Way to go freedom fighter.

She is a professional writer who did this as a publicity stunt I thought she identified herself as a doctor. But in any case, you're simply building a strawman argument. You don't, and cannot, have any idea what her actual motivations were. Deluding yourself into believing you know what other people are thinking is not a good way to get to the bottom of any conflict. (sorry, but you've hit one of my hot buttons)

Under her profile on that website it stated that she was a writer. Maybe she's a doctor too.

You are correct that I cannot tell what another person is thinking. I formed my opinion based on the impression I got from reading her article. Due to the nature of the topic it should be a given that anything stated is an opinion unless someone specifically claims to be quoting a law or statistic.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#72

Post by rayiner »

jebblue wrote: post #45
rabidonrails wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point. She doesn't fault them for "doing their job," she finds fault with the fact that there is a government job in which she sees violations to the Constitution. Also, if you would like to let someone look at your possessions, that's your right. But, a government official cannot, without reasonable cause, demand to look at your property. I'm not saying I would have tried to pull this off,…

>> which she sees violations to the Constitution If she disgrees then she should organize and conduct a legal protest.

Legally, this was a legal protest.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#73

Post by grannyg00se »

This is a very interesting experiment she decided to conduct on what seems to be little to no research. I'm glad that she didn't get seriously injured or harassed or locked up for several days. From what I can tell, once they got her isolated she was treated very well. But it was dangerous. As far as I'm concerned, once you step into an airport (especially an american airport) you are no longer a citizen of any particular country and have no rights.

Unfortunately, she did not simply read the constitution. She yelled it out loud so that others could hear, thereby causing quite a disturbance. Several times she mentioned that people were staring and I imagine all security processing had come to a halt at that point. I think they had no choice but to remove her from the area because of the disturbance. Also, if somebody nearby was planning on doing something, she would have created the perfect time to do it. She could have become an accomplice in a serious crime.

I agree with all of the statements she was yelling out, and it is unfortunate that things have come to this. But please be careful when considering this kind of action. Especially if you have loved ones at home who are going to worry about you.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#74

Post by waqf »

ericflo wrote: post #54
jasonlotito wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, disturbers of the peace, like that damn black woman who wouldn't move to the back of the bus. My peace > your rights. > If people are not searched, there will be more plane attacks and global transport will decline. Damn right, brother! I say we take this a step further, and start searching people when they enter the mall. I mean, a terrorist in the mall is just as dangerous. Especially during the holidays. Or…

Actually lots of schools have metal detectors now at all the entrances.

Actually lots of American schools have metal detectors now at all the entrances.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#75

Post by rayiner »

maxklein wrote: post #21

For people like me who are afraid of flying, this lady is just disturbing the peace. People should be searched before being let on planes. If people are not searched, there will be more plane attacks and global transport will decline. Planes will always be targets for terrorists because of what they represent. The law is not about technicalities. It's about reason and sense, and sensible is that when someone is behav…

Take a look at airport security in Israel sometime. They don't have this silly invasive rigamarole that we do. They have highly trained agents that observe peoples' behavior to look for suspicious events. If they search someone, then it's because they have reasonable cause.

We don't want to do that because it's expensive to do it right. So we have the TSA, which is just a jobs program for the most unskilled folks in the population, and creates an illusion of security without having to provide real security.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#76

Post by tptacek »

This isn't just a DailyKos story about the TSA on the front page of HN. It's a stupid DailyKos story on the front page of HN. It actually demeans well-reasoned, carefully-considered strong objections to the TSA by presenting a categorically bogus objection.

Here's a person who's memorized the 4th Amendment without actually learning what it means, yelling it at the airport in a one-person demonstration, and then doing a victory lap on a blog.

And here's us on HN competing with each other to see who can more stridently agree with her.

Flagged, of course. You should too.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#77

Post by sitkack »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #62
phaus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think that she is fighting the good fight on behalf of humanity. She is a professional writer who did this as a publicity stunt so she could write about the experience afterwards. Her biggest accomplishment is that she managed to make one of the scummiest organizations in the United States appear to be in the right. Way to go freedom fighter.

She is a professional writer who did this as a publicity stunt I thought she identified herself as a doctor. But in any case, you're simply building a strawman argument. You don't, and cannot, have any idea what her actual motivations were. Deluding yourself into believing you know what other people are thinking is not a good way to get to the bottom of any conflict. (sorry, but you've hit one of my hot buttons)

PHaus was saying that professional writers have ulterior motives (what ever those are) and that we should discount the communication of people who are professionals. Only amateurs can be impartial.

No wait, I just put words in his mouth AND made a straw man. Now I am confused.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#78

Post by phaus »

illumin8 wrote: post #66
phaus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She didn't accomplish anything besides making herself look like a lunatic. As I stated, I really hate the TSA and all of the abuses that have occurred, but this isn't going to help. The TSA has been guilty on numerous occasions of violating a person's constitutional rights. They have endangered the lives of some passengers and outright assaulted others. I really do hope that they are taken to task for the things that…

The sad thing is not that she didn't "go through the proper channels," the sad thing about this story is that the passengers in line behind her were more worried about missing their flights and started to yell at her to quit holding up the line. I would love to see something like this happen, then every passenger after her refuse the scanner and recite the 4th amendment while being pat-down. Sadly, this will never ha…

I think that you might be on to something.

After having been accused of being opposed to civil disobedience, your post gave me a way to express how I feel civil disobedience is supposed to work.

If a large number of people started opting for the alternate method of screening passengers, it would bring the process of screening to a screeching halt, yet all would remain well within their rights. If these people complied with the alternate method, without attempting to provoke or harass the TSA, no one would have been arrested.

If you can piss the government off, without putting yourself at risk, then you have mastered the fine art of civil disobedience.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#79

Post by ScottBurson »

phaus wrote: post #2

When you decide to yell out the words to the 4th amendment at the same exact moment you are being processed through the security checkpoint at an airport, you are intentionally trying to cause a scene. This can and would be construed by any reasonable person as an attempt to disrupt the screening process. The author knew exactly what she was doing. While I'm not sure it was grounds for an arrest, she was maliciously…

I'm having the same reaction. I hate the TSA so much I avoid flying if at all possible, and indeed haven't been on a plane in three years. But making a scene like this accomplishes nothing. Or, possibly less than nothing -- if the onlookers thought she was a kook.

If, instead of doing this at the security checkpoint, she wanted to stand at the entrance to the airport speaking and handing out leaflets, she would be exercising her First Amendment rights, and I would hope they would accommodate her. (If they didn't, I wouldn't be surprised, but I would be angry.)

But what she chose to do was just pointless.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#80

Post by sidswift »

phaus wrote: post #40
jbooth wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so we've catapulted the whole defending the erosion of our rights thing and now we're into personally insulting the person who told the story. Good move, considering the grounds of your argument and all. I'll repeat my question.. how bad would it have to be for you to agree with civil disobedience?

I never said that I disagree with civil disobedience. I just don't agree with this woman's perspective on exactly what transpired in this situation. I've worked for the federal government my entire adult life. If you want to convince them to get rid of the TSA, the side asking for the change has to appear blameless. The way bureaucrats make decisions is not logical. If you give them 999 examples of the TSA breaking t…

>If you want to convince them to get rid of the TSA, the side asking for the change has to appear blameless.

Is this workable? People, and specially governments, can find blame in so many ways that you can't convince them of anything unless they are forced or they realise it themselves. (In my country, protestors against massive corruption are framed for minor things they did in past and both media and government repeatedly use those points to distract masses from main issues.)

It appears to me that the lady was trying to convince others of the unreasonableness of the process. That is one of ways of democracy. Do you think "jared" will have something to think about? Do you think "the old goat" will be somewhat careful next time? Will somebody in public or those reading her blog see her point? I do think so and that is a positive impact, however small it is.

You have suggested other channels. The most obvious is voting, other is organised protest. The lady is trying to tell people that it may not be good idea to subject oneself to such procedures, and in a way creating a mass for the organised protests or cohesive votings to happen.

And for her personal courage I am inspired: she knows that she is going to appear a fool to others, she sweats, she knows that it can lead her to physical, financial problems, but she is risking because it is a step ahead.

ps: personally I don't think politicians take note unless there is a mass protest against some existing law, so to ask an individual to use other channels is unreasonable.

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