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EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

consilium.europa.eu

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Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#851

Post by imtringued »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #358
AHappyCamper wrote: post #225

This is obviously the first part of a major push to force us to use Central Bank Digital Currencies. Now that they are banning cash, we will be controlled like never before. This is the beginning of the end of freedom.

You don’t need CBDC, just the existing system today. Here in the UK something like 3% of money is available as paper cash. The rest is just a row in a database. Assets are zero sum - if i sell you my car, i no longer have that asset. Money is not zero sum. It is created and destroyed as loans are made and repaid. Which kinda frazzles people’s minds when they hear it. I know it certainly did mine when i first learned.…

Assets aren't zero sum because you can produce more cars, etc.

Money is zero sum because almost all money is created through debt. Sum up all money and debt and you get roughly zero excluding central bank money and cash.

Money being backed by debt makes sense because it solves the "acceptance problem", that is, how do you make sure the money you have can actually buy things?

Of course that means there is no limit to how much money there is in the system.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#852

Post by franciscop »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #716
franciscop wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assets are luckily not zero-sum, that'd be horrifying. If I write some software, nothing has "disappeared". If you copy me a movie, you still have the movie. If I make a painting of build a table, a new asset has been created.

You’re talking about intangible assets. For better or worse, usually it’s a licence or contract that exists to artificially limit your ability to copy. When you’ve sold your licence to use the software, the software is effectively gone. It’s not always as simple as that. E.g. my brand is an intangible asset. >> If I make a painting That’s just a regular asset, once it’s sold you’ll need to paint a new one.

> For better or worse, usually it’s a licence or contract that exists to artificially limit your ability to copy.

I can assure you I didn't have to issue manual licenses or make manual copies for the millions of downloads that my open source software had this year. When someone downloaded it, no one found it missing from their project.

> once it’s sold you’ll need to paint a new one

Hence is not zero-sum, I can keep making them and the amount of assets keep increasing (non-zero sum). Zero-sum means that "whatever is gained by one side is lost by the other." By creating a new painting nothing is lost.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#853

Post by kube-system »

crazygringo wrote: post #818
kube-system wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't accept a cashiers check for a car in the US right now, unless the seller met me at their bank so I could cash it. A very popular scam at the moment is to buy a car with a fake cashiers check, then disappear with the car, and a couple days later the check comes back as fake.

...that's why you call the bank in front of the buyer to verify it was legitimately issued? You don't need to visit the bank, just phone. There's no reason you should fall for a scam like that.

Scammers will just fake a check from an out of town bank and make excuses that they can’t meet during regular business hours. I certainly won’t fall for any of these scams but it shouldn’t take a security specialist to not be defrauded.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#854

Post by purerandomness »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #551
Teandw wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No citation needed. It doesn't take much brain power to know that certain things are or aren't likely. It would be like asking me to prove that not many people have done the calculation of 15435 divided by 12.5 in their life. I can just tell you from basic logical thinking, that it's not likely that many people have.

Really? Using $10,000 in cash is like doing a very specific math problem? A lot more people have used large quantities of cash for non-criminal activity. The few times I have used huge quantities of cash, it has been for stupid reasons: someone doesn't take credit cards or bank transfers, and won't trust a check until it clears, so it's easier to just use a pile of cash. By the way, I keep plenty of cash around so I…

> someone doesn't take credit cards or bank transfers

That will change with this law, finally. Or put them out of business. That's a good thing, don't you agree?

> so I can still pay for stuff even if the internet goes out regionally

If you having to pay transactions >10k frequently enough that network outages block you, I'd wager you're doing exactly the kind of something this law should prevent.

> there are plenty of ways around these laws.

Sure, but now there's an instrument in the toolbox which wasn't there before. Or are you arguing that outlaws gonna outlaw no matter what, so why even try?

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#855

Post by Rebelgecko »

ceejayoz wrote: post #556
p1esk wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you’re a dissident and you’re running from your government. You’re are more likely to succeed if you have cash.

If I'm a dissident running from the government I probably don't want the attention generated by bringing 10k Euros in cash into a business to buy something.

Common bartering trick is that you don't keep all your money in your wallet. Then you pull it out and say "golly gee, I can only afford to pay X", and you can bypass some of the back and forth. Similar technique would let the dissident avoid raising suspicion. Keep a few hundos in their wallet, a thousand in a different pocket, rolled up in their socks, stuffed in a bra, etc etc

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#856

Post by Rebelgecko »

Teandw wrote: post #456
ur-whale wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This likely affects a number of people that is so small, that it's irrelevant. Citation required.

No citation needed. It doesn't take much brain power to know that certain things are or aren't likely. It would be like asking me to prove that not many people have done the calculation of 15435 divided by 12.5 in their life. I can just tell you from basic logical thinking, that it's not likely that many people have.

I know tons of people who have either bought used cars or sold a car at least once. A decent chunk of those transactions would've been more than 10k euros at current exchange rates.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#858

Post by michaelmrose »

sgjohnson wrote: post #359
michaelmrose wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most states are complex structures largely manipulated by a tiny number of people for the benefit of themselves and the top echelon so as to capture the vast majority of the wealth created by everyone for a minority of nonproductives whos contribution is owning things as opposed to doing useful work. Erasing every obligation they presently possess to the functional state that enabled the nonproductive to live in weal…

I do realise that. I’m not against all (or fair) taxation. I just sympathize with people who manage to get away with tax evasion. Sentences like “the state lost €30bn of revenue because of tax evasion” rubs me the wrong way. It’s not too far off from saying “mugger lost €500 of revenue because the potential victim ran away”. I do realise it’s a fallacy—it’s just not too far off.

It's not "not far off" It's a defective fantasy. You are part of a society entirely based on pooling money through taxation and using it to pay for the things that make your entire life possible. The only people in a position to meaningfully move the needle as far as tax evasion are the rich who overwhelmingly are the folks who benefit from tax evasion and the people most harmed by austerity are the poor who lose benefits essential to their continued existence.

Tax evasion is overwhelmingly the rich stealing from the poor.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#859

Post by veeti »

flumpcakes wrote: post #488

There already exists laws where you have to register with tax authorities to receive payments in cash over 10,000 euros. It would be quite easy for the government to look at this list and decide that there's no reason they can't be done by BACS and then introduce this law. There's a lot of replies that are quite shocked, but in the EU and the UK it is very unusual to use cash for high value payments. For example, you…

> in the EU and the UK it is very unusual to use cash for high value payments

You have obviously never dealt with a German person.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#860

Post by stev-0 »

olivermarks wrote: post #253

'By limiting large cash payments, the EU will make it harder for criminals to launder dirty money. ' Bizarre how the EU is penalizing everyone in order to 'make it harder for criminals to launder dirty money'. People pay taxes in order to have their bureaucrats serve them by creating a safe financial and social environment, not to have them assume everyone is a criminal/terrorist and greatly impede access to their as…

I don’t see how limiting cash payments is “penalizing” anyone.

I have never payed more than say $3k in cash. It just doesn’t make sense to do so.

Privacy shouldn’t exist for financial transactions. It makes it easier to launder money or hide wealth. There is no other use for “dark” financial transactions.

There is no tyranny in making finances of everyone transparent. It doesn’t force anyone to make different choices about WHAT to do with their money. It makes what people pay for auditable.

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