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Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#441

Post by PaulHoule »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #436
PaulHoule wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the 1990s my dad's oldest brother went to the outskirts of NYC and was really impressed with the fake "Rolex" he bought. My mom was indignant about it because she sold men's clothing for a living and could tell you exactly how a fake Tommy Hilfiger shirt was worse in so many ways than a real one. Two weeks later the watch stopped running. Around the same time, though, my mom's youngest brother was driving on…

> My mom was indignant about it because she sold men's clothing for a living and could tell you exactly how a fake Tommy Hilfiger shirt was worse in so many ways than a real one. Gomorrah opens with a description of Italian clothing manufacturing. As described there, the difference between a fake shirt and a real shirt is that they were made to the same specifications under one and the same contract, by different fac…

That's Italy!

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#442

Post by abbadadda »

JanSt wrote: post #306
abbadadda wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be in denial that this phenomenon exists. I’d suggest reading _The Moral Animal: Why We Are the Way We Are._ Quite insightful. Status matters more than you’re letting on, and the perception of it is subconscious. No one (hopefully) is actively making an effort to look down on someone for riding their bike to their job at Pizza Hut - but many subtle things get registered by humans around us every day wheth…

Thank god I‘m not living in a city with money as a first value. People would look down on you here for taking a car to your job if you can use a bike.

Missed the point by a mile.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#443

Post by cafard »

vineyardmike wrote: post #427
pclmulqdq wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a bit of an idea now that you should be expressing yourself with your money, not expressing society's ideas. Around cars and watches, this creates a little bit of a "dead zone" for prestigious professionals. For example, if you aren't showing up in a $200k Maserati, your car had better be under $50k (maybe $70k with inflation). Only posers who aren't really into cars but want to show off their wealth…

> Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual." There’s a running joke in my circle about the “dad professional class”. People who are older (40-60s) and go to the office in a remote-work-accepting world mostly because they seem to want to leave their family at home. They all dress like shit in ill-fitting clothes, but because…

Or maybe by their 40s-60s they have lost all interest in what 25yos, tee-shirted or not, think about their attire. They have seen the fashion wheel spin more than once, and are no longer compelled by it.

(Source: upper 60s, go into the office mostly because a) it's not far, b) my office setup is a bit better, c) I don't want to wake my wife with Zoom calls. I do have some tailored shirts but seldom wear them.)

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#444

Post by pclmulqdq »

cafard wrote: post #443
vineyardmike wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual." There’s a running joke in my circle about the “dad professional class”. People who are older (40-60s) and go to the office in a remote-work-accepting world mostly because they seem to want to leave their family at home. They all dress like shit in ill-fitting clothes, but because…

Or maybe by their 40s-60s they have lost all interest in what 25yos, tee-shirted or not, think about their attire. They have seen the fashion wheel spin more than once, and are no longer compelled by it. (Source: upper 60s, go into the office mostly because a) it's not far, b) my office setup is a bit better, c) I don't want to wake my wife with Zoom calls. I do have some tailored shirts but seldom wear them.)

You can tailor your slacks and shirts too, and it's pretty cheap. It will make you look a lot better than what most people expect if you're the type to dress business casual. That is, if you care.

Suits are very expensive to tailor by comparison.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#445

Post by ALittleLight »

The ape experiment seems like it's been misinterpreted badly - including by the linked video. The kids are told they are "playing a game" whereas the apes are trying to pull the treat from the box. The children aren't being outsmarted by the apes, they are doing a different thing. Many toys and children's games involve arbitrary and pointless actions. The kids have been taught to do something, are told to do something, and then do it.

If you told the children their goal was to remove the gummy bear from the box with as few actions as possible they too would skip messing with the mechanism on top. The apes are playing one game (get the treat) and the kids are playing another (manipulate this box the way I show you). Comparing their actions and drawing conclusions is silly. It's like saying someone playing chess is missing a lot of moves that a checkers player made.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#446

Post by ajb »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #399
borroka wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps dressing poorly (very common) and not being in shape (bimodal distribution, there are many in very good shape and many in very bad shape, few in between) started out as a counter-signal, but today it is just sloppiness, or convenience, like it is more convenient to order fast food instead of grilling chicken. I work in the tech industry, and although I don't usually wear a suit, I often show up in a spezzato,…

I've personally never understood the business world's obsession with suits. Like, what does a deal need to be signed in a suit? What does the suit contribute to the deal? If it's to convey "professionalism", surely a cheap $300 piece of attire shouldn't be a stronger signal than whatever due diligence the two parties have done already?

A suit wouldn't be the last signal checked, but the first - back which most things were done in person. It's not the signing of the deal that needs the suit, but the introduction. And once you've been introduced in a suit, changing it later is another signal that you may prefer not to send. As well as that if you've gone to the trouble of having a suit and maintaining it, you may as well wear it all the time rather than waste time figuring out if you need to wear it that day.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#447

Post by robocat »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #259

This kind of signaling is the reason why I ended up voluntarily with no friends in my mid 30s, down from a pretty active social life in my 20s knowing hundreds of people and regularly hanging out with many dozens, mostly in the Bay Area but also in Europe, where I’m originally from. As people get older, I noticed they just can’t stop flashing how successful they are, how they can afford this or that, and suddenly eve…

Surely you must know people that just do-their-own-thing, rather than the fake aspirationals (often middle-class status seekers)?

I don’t think it is that difficult to tell the difference between the loving enthusiast (with say a gaming PC they built that looks like dreck using unpopular parts, with judicious use of expense), and the mere status chaser (with say a stupid expensive gaming PC with clichéd blingken lights, plus an enthusiasm for high-status parts and ranking behaviours). If engineers, find the true engineer types, rather than the wannabes?

I could imagine it is difficult in some suburbs that mostly have plastic people, but you said you are more worldly than that. There are poseurs everywhere, but there are definite patterns of behaviour that you can use to filter them out, regardless of their clique.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#448

Post by nostrademons »

rosnd wrote: post #394
nostrademons wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was appliance shopping recently and it seems like the most expensive appliances are often not the best. If you just want to cook, you're usually better off with a good LG or GE oven than with a Viking, which test notoriously poorly. Same with many consumer products - a Honda or Toyota will be more reliable with more convenience features than a BMW or Rolls Royce; a Chicco or Britax carseat is often safer, more comf…

> - a Honda or Toyota will be more reliable with more convenience features than a BMW or Rolls Royce What convenience features? Is the Honda or Toyota really meaningfully more reliable during the first couple of years of ownership?

More cupholders, the ability to seat 3 carseats abreast, fabric rather than leather seats, better gas mileage, fits more easily in tight parking spots (and you care less if it gets dinged because you didn't pay $70K for it). Only thing the BMW really has on them is soundproofing (and probably acceleration & handling, but I don't care much about that).

And I care more about how reliable it is at > 10 years of ownership, not < 3 years (when nearly everything is reliable). My Honda Fit is coming up on 14 years old and runs like new.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#449

Post by yourapostasy »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #334
yourapostasy wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I the only one not impressed in any sense by Teslas I could excuse the drawbacks you cited and the cost if they were the Framework laptop of the automotive world. But at those price points, and a repairability narrative that is not much better than, “out of warranty and one accident away from into landfill”, there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell I’ll buy a Tesla.

> repairability narrative that is not much better than, “out of warranty and one accident away from into landfill” I have a couple of old Range Rovers. There are very few things you can't fix with a half-inch spanner and a hammer, and those you can fix with a 7/16th spanner and a bit of sticky tape. They run on propane, so they get cheap tax and can be registered as Low Emission Vehicles, which is pretty hilarious fo…

Which specific models are your units?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#450

Post by b112 »

SoftTalker wrote: post #359
steveBK123 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is very well put, you really hit the nail on the head here on the sort of reverse bell curve of signaling.. For the very wealthy.. If you show enough interest in something to make signaling purchases, it's expected to be "up to snuff" .. this can mean very very high expense or high esotericness. So that might mean a $200k sports car, or it might mean some uncommon though inexpensive limited production vintag…

Very senior/wealthy people can get away with whatever they want. It's why Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook (notice he still wore a suit while testifying to Congress though). If a senior executive wore a $200 suit to work, nobody would say a word.

(notice he still wore a suit while testifying to Congress though).

Don't like the guy, his company, his policies. And I tend to repect our elected officals more than most.

But the idea of showing up dressed in a t-shirt and jeans, and/or a hoodie, make me smile broadly.

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