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Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

robkhenderson.substack.com

391–400 of 651 posts

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are also culturally dependent, and are in-group/out-group signals. Many people in Silicon Valley explicitly want to keep people who believe that business casual is more pleasing to the eye out of their social circles. It's a value judgment; to them, hoodies are more pleasing to the eye, and more comfortable, and they don't want people who believe otherwise in their companies.

Right, that's the point of the parent of this subthread. They (the hoodie-wearers) would probably insist that they don't judge based on dress or appearance, but they do, and maybe more harshly than the suit-wearers. It's just what people do. I grew up wearing suits to work, shaving every day, and wearing a short neat haircut. I don't as much anymore, but I don't wear hoodies with pizza sauce stains either, and I don'…

You'll meet suit-wearing people, business casual people, and pizza-stained-hoodie people. Some will be conventionally attractive, some not. Some old, some young, some male, some female, some of one race, some another. Some will be skilled, diligent, and productive, some will be well-spoken and good communicators, some will be honest, some will be punctual... some will be not.

Some of those things are choices that matter and should impact your respect for someone else. Some are not, do not, and should not.

Personally, as a controls engineer who frequents messy manufacturing facilities, dressing in a suit gets in the way of getting work done. It subtly conveys "I'm too important to get my hands dirty, I'll leave the grunt work to the grunts." That kind of unwillingness to do whatever's required to get the job done is a point against those folks in my circles. I do understand that people who come to work in a suit may have different struggles vying for status and trying to send the right social signals in conference rooms, and I don't envy them those tasks - but please don't think less of me as a human because of what I choose to wear.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#392
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, the Land Cruiser will be passed down for many generations, so the amortized cost of a Land Cruiser is not expensive. Also, Land Cruiser has apparently been discontinued.

Not in Australia? But then you do get articles like https://www.betootaadvocate.com/uncategorized/brisbane-accou...

For anyone not from aus the Betoota is a (great) satire publication similar to the onion

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#393

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW i…

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Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#394
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when I had my last kitchen remodel done (a modest one,but very nice), the builder that did it said with all his clients there is an inverse relationship between how much people spend on their kitchen and appliances, and how much cooking they do - i.e. the people who spend the most, actually do the least cooking, and vice-versa. In my own limited experience, I tend to agree. I'll take an awesome cook (my spouse in thi…

I was appliance shopping recently and it seems like the most expensive appliances are often not the best. If you just want to cook, you're usually better off with a good LG or GE oven than with a Viking, which test notoriously poorly. Same with many consumer products - a Honda or Toyota will be more reliable with more convenience features than a BMW or Rolls Royce; a Chicco or Britax carseat is often safer, more comf…

> - a Honda or Toyota will be more reliable with more convenience features than a BMW or Rolls Royce

What convenience features? Is the Honda or Toyota really meaningfully more reliable during the first couple of years of ownership?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#395

This kind of signaling is the reason why I ended up voluntarily with no friends in my mid 30s, down from a pretty active social life in my 20s knowing hundreds of people and regularly hanging out with many dozens, mostly in the Bay Area but also in Europe, where I’m originally from. As people get older, I noticed they just can’t stop flashing how successful they are, how they can afford this or that, and suddenly eve…

Confused on your last point. Joining a good pre IPO company is generally a good idea. The difficult part is to find the good company, IMO. Look at how many were considered good but still haven’t gone public.

That’s the whole point, you can’t deterministically know which company will make you rich in a couple years without a massive amount of luck (like my friend). My friend instead meant it as: “are you stupid? Why don’t you just do like me? It’s so easy and simple!”.

I clearly have a lot of startups and pre IPO companies under my belt, and he knew that.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#396

Boss gives a dinner party at their home for their employees. All the guests show up in their best. Boss is in shorts, t-shirt and sandals.

Top shelf power play. This guy Zooms

The real power play would be if the boss's t-shirt is the 3 for $10 variety from Target rather than a $200 bespoke one.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#397

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW i…

Rolex hatred seems like it is about expressing contempt towards the previous establishment. Presidents used to wear them (still do actually) but it's not uncommon to see very rich politicians wearing very cheap watches probably deliberately. Same goes for suit wearing. I think pg wrote an article on his blog about how suit wearing was for people who thought like conformists and obviously being a conformist was not fo…

Interestingly, the $1 salary (with large equity) gives you massive flexibility in how and when you get taxed, and also a lot of additional negotiating power and flexibility with ex-wives (and the Court) on child support and alimony, at least in California.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#398

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW i…

> In these scenarios I think it's because the $2k watch or $70k car is too easily attained by lower classes that they are no longer considered signals by the upper classes.

Or it's about signaling that you're "in the know" with the in-group.

I read some list from (I believe) the 1800s that listed the different vocabulary used by aristocratic vs. middle class English people. It wasn't anything fancy (e.g. graveyard = aristocrat, cemetery = middle class). But as soon as that list was published and the middle class strivers knew to imitate those parts of the dialect, I'm sure the aristocrats quickly deprecated those signals.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#399
post #260

As always, context is everything. Not all countersignals are that costly. For example, casual wear is common among devs. This signals that our skill set is valuable enough that we don't need to comply with corporate dress codes. Sometimes someone from a poor background turns up in a suit - for example, we had a QA guy who did, having converted from some previous career via a short course. Sometimes new grads come to…

Perhaps dressing poorly (very common) and not being in shape (bimodal distribution, there are many in very good shape and many in very bad shape, few in between) started out as a counter-signal, but today it is just sloppiness, or convenience, like it is more convenient to order fast food instead of grilling chicken. I work in the tech industry, and although I don't usually wear a suit, I often show up in a spezzato,…

I've personally never understood the business world's obsession with suits.

Like, what does a deal need to be signed in a suit? What does the suit contribute to the deal? If it's to convey "professionalism", surely a cheap $300 piece of attire shouldn't be a stronger signal than whatever due diligence the two parties have done already?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holmes yes, so obviously so that people remarked on it. Zuckerberg? The archetype of Steve Jobs' dress code is the black turtleneck and jeans. Zuck is famous for his consistent grey t-shirt and jeans, or sometimes hoodies.

Per my other comment, it's not the copying of the style but rather the copying of the behavior / habit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33946519

Thanks, that makes sense and that quote you found seems to prove it.
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