Live data from Hacker News

Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

robkhenderson.substack.com

301–310 of 651 posts

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#301

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW i…

I think there's a bit of an idea now that you should be expressing yourself with your money, not expressing society's ideas. Around cars and watches, this creates a little bit of a "dead zone" for prestigious professionals. For example, if you aren't showing up in a $200k Maserati, your car had better be under $50k (maybe $70k with inflation). Only posers who aren't really into cars but want to show off their wealth…

Yes this is very well put, you really hit the nail on the head here on the sort of reverse bell curve of signaling..

For the very wealthy.. If you show enough interest in something to make signaling purchases, it's expected to be "up to snuff" .. this can mean very very high expense or high esotericness.

So that might mean a $200k sports car, or it might mean some uncommon though inexpensive limited production vintage vehicle even though it may be of reasonable price, the time & effort you took to acquire & maintain it is a signal of taste.

Otherwise you'd be better off signaling complete disinterest with a very vanilla middle of the road options.

On menswear I think to your example, you could say you'd be better off not wearing a suit than in wearing a $200 Men's Wearhouse suit. To that end, these days, the type of people you tend to see in suits are either security / front desk staff or very senior corporate executives. Those in the middle have enough labor negotiating power to not be required to wear a suit, but probably not the desire/wealth to spend $2k on a properly tailored suit.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#302

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW i…

The food part is big. It’s wild how in the US especially there are about three classes of grocery stores and each cater almost exclusively to a certain social class. You don’t see many laborers or fast food workers grabbing a meal from the local co-op or Whole Foods and the local Aldi or Walmart rarely sees an executive unless they’re infamously stingy

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holmes yes, so obviously so that people remarked on it. Zuckerberg? The archetype of Steve Jobs' dress code is the black turtleneck and jeans. Zuck is famous for his consistent grey t-shirt and jeans, or sometimes hoodies.

> his consistent grey t-shirt and jeans I’m pretty sure they were talking about that consistency. The story that I have heard, is that Jobs wore the same thing, every day, so his mind wouldn’t be “bogged down,” with minutia, like what to wear. I think some folks also have superstitions about dress.

this story has been around for a long time, and attributed to a number of people. As a student, I came across it being said of Einstein.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wearing a suit to a tech company will probably get you ostracized even if you just like wearing suits. Not true. If you are a menswear enthusiast who is genuinely into fine tailoring, then people will respect it and even show interest. Generally, having hobbies and interests adds to one’s character. Now wearing a suit because you think it will make people take you more seriously will get you some side eye.

Which is a shame. Someone wearing business casual is so much more pleasant to the eye than typical sloppy hacker wear. Especially once you start getting older and flabbier.

Doesn’t business causal mean like slacks and a lame tucked in pastel polo shirt? I think both a suit and hacker wear are more interesting

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#305
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the 1990s my dad's oldest brother went to the outskirts of NYC and was really impressed with the fake "Rolex" he bought. My mom was indignant about it because she sold men's clothing for a living and could tell you exactly how a fake Tommy Hilfiger shirt was worse in so many ways than a real one. Two weeks later the watch stopped running. Around the same time, though, my mom's youngest brother was driving on…

>Around the same time, though, my mom's youngest brother was driving on the cross-Bronx throughway, stopped to help somebody whose car was pulled over on the side of the road, and found the driver had been shot dead. I don't get what this has too do with the fake rolex.

The outskirts of NYC were pretty rough back in the day. I don't think the guy got shot because he was involved in a fake Rolex gang though...

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead, they get slightly pitying looks from coworkers, which make them feel slightly inferior and ashamed, which makes them not do it again. No they don't! Is my point. This is almost entirely a story made up by this bizarro world of smart people who think themselves into circles (and aren't working at pizza hut). Nobody cares how someone gets themselves to their job at pizza hut; the other people working there a…

You seem to be in denial that this phenomenon exists. I’d suggest reading _The Moral Animal: Why We Are the Way We Are._ Quite insightful. Status matters more than you’re letting on, and the perception of it is subconscious. No one (hopefully) is actively making an effort to look down on someone for riding their bike to their job at Pizza Hut - but many subtle things get registered by humans around us every day wheth…

Thank god I‘m not living in a city with money as a first value. People would look down on you here for taking a car to your job if you can use a bike.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#307

The poorer you are, the more you are interested in appearing rich. Higher EV in that play allowing increased chances to mingle with rich class. The richer you are, the more you are interested in appearing humble. Higher EV in signalling "money speaks, wealth whispers" message and appearing "down-to-earth" to win people over. Very often it pays to do the opposite of what is expected from you.

there’s this paper scissors rock thing with wealth & money poor: got to say you work hard when talking to middle class middle class: got to say you work smart if you’re talking to upper class upper class: got to say your work hard to peers, middle class, and poor, but reasons are different. for peers it’s because nihilism isn’t cool neither is being overly epicurean everyone says the right narrative to the right peop…

Oh I never lie about the fact that I don’t work hard. Literally never worked a hard day in my whole life. Yet I make bank for some reason that still eludes me.

I am painfully aware of my privilege working in tech which is why I don’t hide it, and try my best to spread it around in ways that aren’t self-gratifying. I’ve paid my friends’ rent, car repairs, groceries, plane tickets so they could be home for the holidays, venmoed my struggling friends so they could go out with the group, hooked them up with jobs, bought concert and festival tickets. Literally no one in my social circle is allowed to say, “sorry I can’t money’s tight.” My only conditions are that they not thank me, never pay me back in any way whatsoever, and tell no one.

One of the managers in my office does the same thing since he also grew up poor and hungry. When your out to dinner with him you not escape without being stuffed to the brim, and dessert, and leftovers.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#308
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the 1990s my dad's oldest brother went to the outskirts of NYC and was really impressed with the fake "Rolex" he bought. My mom was indignant about it because she sold men's clothing for a living and could tell you exactly how a fake Tommy Hilfiger shirt was worse in so many ways than a real one. Two weeks later the watch stopped running. Around the same time, though, my mom's youngest brother was driving on…

>Around the same time, though, my mom's youngest brother was driving on the cross-Bronx throughway, stopped to help somebody whose car was pulled over on the side of the road, and found the driver had been shot dead. I don't get what this has too do with the fake rolex.

Run on sentence makes you wonder.

7/10 meme

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#309
post #244

> An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car. It must be so tedious to live having internalized this perspective on people. The vast vast majority of people are not "signaling" when they do things, t…

You find it unrelatable (and most commenters on this website will too.) People can be broadly separated into 2 categories in terms of cognitive wiring for personality psychology. " People people" and "Things* people". (Theres a lot of overlap between interest in aesthetics and interest in ideas here too, but a separate discussion) These map rather neatly onto other things like introversion and agreeableness, but park…

This people-people vs. things-people dichotomy is an interesting theory. Did you read this somewhere or is this something you deduced?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#310
post #89

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW i…

Doing something for pure status signalling is considered crass. Expensive hobbies are not. I think they should be, but they're not.

when I had my last kitchen remodel done (a modest one,but very nice), the builder that did it said with all his clients there is an inverse relationship between how much people spend on their kitchen and appliances, and how much cooking they do - i.e. the people who spend the most, actually do the least cooking, and vice-versa. In my own limited experience, I tend to agree.

I'll take an awesome cook (my spouse in this case) and a modest kitchen, over a modest cook and an awesome kitchen any day.

Post reply on HN