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Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

latimes.com

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Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#241

Post by JumpinJack_Cash »

gumboza wrote: post #165
coolbreezetft22 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd imagine Tesla is better off with Musk being distracted by his shiny new toy. Though I'd be concerned about the effect he is having on their brand image. Even two years ago I was on the verge of buying a Tesla but ended up cancelling my order in large part because I just couldn't stand the obnoxiousness of Elon and he has gotten orders of magnitude worse since then. His new "demographic"/cult also se…

He does run a cult. My father finds Musk entirely reputable. I am currently subject to at least a 30 minute call a day from him, a retired model S owner, who has nothing left in his life other than the Tesla. The calls are 30 minutes of him reeling off Tesla PR bollocks. He chased everyone he knew away, speaks of nothing else and cannot see reason or error in this or any of Musk's things. He thinks the Twitter thing…

America is not becoming atheist.

People are just substituting God with false idols and cults.

That deep need to believe in something bigger than self is not going away, it will always be there, it can be filled with religion or something else.

I believe the least destructive way to fill it is with sports affiliation so I won't be so cynic about the SuperBowl hype come this February

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#242

Post by newaccount74 »

holmesworcester wrote: post #118
cloudking wrote: post #59

FSD beta is fairly good, certainly better than the standard Autopilot. It's definitely not perfect, but so far for basic driving from point A to B it seems to work well. I can only see the tech improving as it gathers more data and feedback. It's a ML training data problem at this point, no?

It's shockingly good and definitely worth 20% of the value of a car, for me. Two main reasons: 1. Your body doesn't feel tired after driving, because besides the effort of a hand resting on the bottom of the wheel, your body can be completely relaxed the vast majority of the time. 2. When FSD is on, you can completely stop paying attention to navigation-related decisions. You still have to pay attention to driving an…

I am a bit annoyed that people think "resting the hand on the bottom of the wheel" is enough.

Why can't people hold the wheel properly, with two hands, in ten-to-two (or quarter-to-three) position? If something unexpected happens, you can react much faster.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#243

Post by philippejara »

ghaff wrote: post #113
strawhatguy wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I stopped at “the government should…” That never goes the way you think it will.

Advertising claims are in fact regulated. There just isn't a lot of enforcement but, at normal companies, legal teams are very conservative about making claims in advertising and marketing materials. If I claim our product is better than Brand X, you'd better believe legal is going to want to see the evidence and probably qualify the statement.

Indeed false advertising is a thing and it's not legal(depending on where you live ? it is in most of the world that has teslas at least). The government reaching further than going for false advertising is where the slope gp mentioned would come in I assume, and on that I fully agree.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#244

Post by [deleted] »

treeman79 wrote: post #216
nerdix wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've seen there are quite a lot of Tesla drivers in major southern suburbs. Southern suburbs tend to be fairly conservative. Maybe not quite as Trump loving as rural areas. But conservative nonetheless and likely not turned off by Elon's recent emergence as a right wing political figure. Also, if you read enough /r/elonmusk you'll see that a lot of people have bought into Elon's schtick that he's actually j…

There is a heavy mix of liberal and conservatives in the south. Classic big city vs everyone else dynamic. Had a group of BLM protestors positing live on twitter how they where coming up to where I live to burn down neighborhoods. I’m surrounded by gun fanatics. If police hadn’t blocked mass transit and highways it would have been a blood bath.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#245

Post by Apocryphon »

jdminhbg wrote: post #225
fundad wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think another post alluded to this but if Tesla gets in trouble the cars will likely be bricked right? If the viability of the company relies on the hype machine then it’s pretty relevant what kj d of person is “renting” me the car

> I think another post alluded to this but if Tesla gets in trouble the cars will likely be bricked right? I strongly doubt millions of cars will be left bricked to be towed to the junkyard.

If they can do that to IoT devices, well…

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#246

Post by Veserv »

cal5k wrote: post #137
ttul wrote: post #53

Who would have thought that a camera-only system would struggle to succeed where systems that leverage $20,000 LIDAR sensors and racks of specialized machine learning hardware have met with only limited success?

This whole thread smacks of this type of cynicism - apparently a lot of tech people now really, really hate Elon Musk. Andrej Karpathy addressed this point in his recent Lex Fridman interview - more sensors aren't necessarily better, and for each sensor you introduce a whole host of supply chain issues and physical constraints. By sticking to one sensor type that contains all of the information theoretically necessar…

Andrej Karpathy designed a system that is literally 1000x worse in miles between disengagements than the systems deployed by Waymo and Cruise. It reached that level more slowly than just about every other company in the space and is improving more slowly than other companies that are already tens to hundreds of times further ahead. For crying out loud, they have not even figured out “Do Not Enter” signs, school bus stop signs, and not running into children and strollers yet after literal years of development. His opinion on the subject relative to the real experts, who do use more thorough sensor suites, is worthless.

That Andrej Karpathy admits that they hamstrung themselves by focusing on BoM, development costs, and production logistics when they have received payment for and are currently shipping a defective safety-critical product demonstrates either their total reckless disregard for all established safety process or total ignorance. Neither of which is acceptable when doing regular engineering, let alone safety-critical engineering.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#247

Post by TomSwirly »

jdminhbg wrote: post #185
Mistletoe wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same exact response and cancelled mine around the time of the tweets about the Pelosi attack he made. It’s a shame, we loved our last Tesla but I can’t stand the thought of being associated with him. We were supposed to pick it up the week he made those tweets. I was his former prime target demographic. I feel very strongly about protecting the environment, I hate gasoline engines after working on them most…

> I had the same exact response and cancelled mine around the time of the tweets about the Pelosi attack he made. Sorry to be so blunt, but I find this level of online political attachment to be completely deranged. Either it's a good car or not.

To the completely unethical person, people making decisions for ethical reasons will always appear to be madness.

I might have been a little less "blunt", but the word "deranged" for someone's ethical choice made me vomit in my mouth a little.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#248

Post by kennend3 »

angry_moose wrote: post #235
kennend3 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> somehow it activated again on a different day and it happened again. I dont have a tesla but my car has things like "lane assist" and most of these safety features can be turned off, but the default state is "ON" and this is reset once the car is turned off/on again. Oddly enough, what it calls "advanced cruse control" defaults to OFF on my car and must be turned on any time you want to use it?

Yeah, I think it was something like that. Once I began checking for it, it seemed inconsistent - possibly related to how long the car was off? The joys of modern technology - every time I get in my car, I have to spend 15 seconds checking the state of the "Car may decide to murder you setting". Granted it did fine on wider, more developed roads once we got closer to larger towns, and it would probably do fine in my d…

"lane assist" can defiantly be annoying. While mine doesn't try to kill me by driving off a cliff... It does seem to prefer that i drive dangerously close to those cement "jersey barrier" walls they use in construction sites??

The lane narrows due to construction and it prefers to maintain the lane even thought it is too narrow... I don't get why it cant detect the barrier and realize that driving over the line is safer?

This is my big issue with the whole "FSD" - roads are not uniform and driving conditions are not always idea.

Let's say FSD is fine for 80% of the time, but what happens if drivers depend on it and it is now in the 20%?

I think giving drivers a false sense of security is very harmful.

Psychologists have shown time and again that as car safety improves, driver aggression only increases to remove the benefits.

ABS - You can now drive faster knowing you wont skid...

"lane assist" has shown that people will depend on it and allow their cars to drive right off the road and into the ditch (youtube has a lot of these). FSB will only be worse.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#249

Post by fnordpiglet »

lawn wrote: post #120
fnordpiglet wrote: post #97

I’m been on the fsd beta for a long time now and I have to say it’s remarkably improved over the last year. If it continues to improve at this rate for another year it’s going to be pretty useful. I use it to drive around seattle (which is a difficult driving place with randomly followed infrastructure standards and randomly driving drivers and randomly parked cars) and it used to be a death defying gripping of the s…

That you're surprised that it managed drive door to door is telling. And not in the positive way you want to make it seem.

The fact you’re not surprised that a car can drive itself is telling. And not in the positive way you want to make it seem.

It’s magic man. You’re jaded, and have set the goal posts too far and likely increasingly far.

WRT delivery timing, who amongst us had delivered a complex R&D heavy software project on time? I’m not an Elon fan boy but I respect he laid out a vision and worked to execute on it. That he didn’t hit the mark with 100% fidelity doesn’t seem like an issue to me.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#250

Post by dnissley »

maxbond wrote: post #232
dnissley wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We find ourselves living in a vetocracy, where very little groundbreaking work actually gets done. Critics rule the roost at this current cultural moment. So there's a lot of pent-up energy that will be rewarded to anyone able to articulate a concrete positive vision for the future. Of course people are going to bow down and worship the one guy actually making progress against all odds. The only other person might be…

Would you kindly present an argument as to why one should believe we are living in a vetocracy? I see people pursuing all manner of projects all the time, I don't really buy that the world has been narrowed by criticism. What I see limiting people's ability to pursue projects they're passionate about is a lack of funding and opportunity.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/22/21228469/marc-andreessen-build...

See also: The Revolt of the Public by Martin Gurri which focuses a lot on the criticism issue

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