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Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

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Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#81

Post by GrooveSAN »

Archelaos wrote: post #51
rsj_hn wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fatalities should be measured in terms of miles travelled. Not per mile of highway, or per number of cars, or per capita. Someone who drives five days a week, 60 miles per day is going to have a higher risk of getting into an accident that someone who drives only on weekends, 30 miles per day. This does have any bearing on how safe the roads are.

I agree with you that miles travelled is a better metric. But traffic density would be another interesting metric. Temporary speed limits on the autobahn are typically dynamically adjusted to the traffic situation.

Not all motorways are made equal, and that may play a role as well. I frequently drive over French, Italian, German motorways and can say the quality and maintenance of the road vary greatly between European countries.

Eventually, I see so many other factors that could enter the picture that I’m wondering if that comparison makes any sense at all (apart from proving the writer is trying to force his point?).

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#82

Post by Georgelemental »

KindAndFriendly wrote: post #4

Just like the gun debate in the US, the speed limit debate in Germany has at its core nothing to do with rational arguments. It is about perceived restriction, limiting personal freedom, and potentially taking away a right people are used to.

You could say the same of the abortion debate. Or the free speech debate. Or the…

It's perfectly legitimate and necessary to argue about rights

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#84

Post by danparsonson »

WirelessGigabit wrote: post #17
MandieD wrote: post #11

Despite having occasionally enjoyed letting ‘er rip at 160-180 (about 100-110mph), I lean towards a 130 general limit - having a kid changes a lot of one’s priorities, it turns out. The author should have listed the fatalities by 100 million km driven - of course practically-empty Finland is going to have far fewer fatalities per 1000km of road than much denser Germany!

Having done 250kmph / 155mph on the German Autobahn I do wonder what why you feel like you should take the pleasure away from other people because you had a kid? No-one forces you to drive faster (1) and when driving you can stick to the right lane (2) and check your mirrors when you need to pass (3).

> why you feel like you should take the pleasure away from other people because you had a kid?

That argument works both ways - why do you feel like you should take away a person's right to safer roads just because you didn't have a kid? Any speed limit or lack thereof does not account for driving skill.

A victim of a car accident loses a lot more than a sense of fun.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#85

Post by nautilius »

KindAndFriendly wrote: post #4

Just like the gun debate in the US, the speed limit debate in Germany has at its core nothing to do with rational arguments. It is about perceived restriction, limiting personal freedom, and potentially taking away a right people are used to.

With the only tiny difference being that guns in the US kill orders of magnitude more people than driving on the Autobahn (~50000 vs ~300 annually).

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-da...

https://www.zukunft-mobilitaet.net/172160/analyse/tempolimit...

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#86

Post by hugh-avherald »

> Opponents of speed limits often claim that the majority of people do not regularly drive faster than 130 km/h, ... If we look at the data, however, the picture is quite different.

> [graph showing 30% drive faster than 130km/h]

So the data actually confirms the 'common myth'.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#87

Post by dghughes »

rad_gruchalski wrote: post #76
Retric wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t symmetric. Being X kph faster than traffic is significantly more risky than being X kph slower than traffic. It’s that damn Velocity squared term that always fucks things up.

Yeah, being too fast can be bad for you. Being too slow can be bad for many around you. A guess. An average, don’t take it literally.

I recall on the local news a police officer urged people to "go with the flow". Don't speed but also don't doddle since the difference between speeders vs slow pokes is dangerous. If the speed is 100km/h and everyone is going 110km/h or 90km/h do what everyone else is doing.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#88

Post by mcronce »

hugh-avherald wrote: post #86

> Opponents of speed limits often claim that the majority of people do not regularly drive faster than 130 km/h, ... If we look at the data, however, the picture is quite different. > [graph showing 30% drive faster than 130km/h] So the data actually confirms the 'common myth'.

30% isn't a majority.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#89

Post by squidgyhead »

justapassenger wrote: post #29

Speed doesn't kill, speed differential does. Any road where you have a big differential between speeds by various road users is just inherently dangerous. If everyone would be doing 250km/h, it'd be safe. Same if everyone would be doing 120km/h. But when you mix 250 and 120 on the same road, it's inherently dangerous.

Speed difference is also an issue. Speed certainly kills.

Increased speed limits in BC increased fatalities: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fatal-crashe...

Road Safety Impact of Increased Rural Highway Speed Limits in British Columbia, Canada https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/10/10/3555/htm sustainability-10-03555-v2.pdf

https://icsw.nhtsa.gov/nhtsa/fars/speeding_data_visualizatio... 27% of fatalities were speeding-related

“There is a great deal of evidence that if you drive just two percent faster, your risk of being killed increases by 10 percent,” https://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/23/speeding-health-hazards/

Moreover, traffic flow is worse at higher speeds, and there's more pollution, and it's louder. And we have to spend more money on roads.

If one were to want to drive fast, the best place would be a race track.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#90

Post by est31 »

rad_gruchalski wrote: post #63
est31 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with ground based traffic is that you have a lot of non-moving objects around you, like trees, walls, animals, etc. So even if all cars drive at 250 km/h, those non-moving objects still remain there and pose an ever increasing risk with increased speed. Furthermore, curves are more dangerous at higher speeds.

We’re talking about the Autobahn, not a random road in the forest or a city. Those are designed for the speed.

Due to topography, Autobahn roads can still be very curvy. The Albaufstieg [0] is an extreme example but not the only one. Notice the sign at 3:04, it's limited to 60 kmh. Weather can make those curves even more dangerous, e.g. rain or ice. As for objects, they still occur. One example is prior accidents. Another example is the end of a traffic jam. These are an especially bad problem for trucks [1], that actually drive way slower than 130 kmh even. The problem here is driver attention, but too fast speed can also contribute [2].

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBbAvzXhwNQ

[1]: https://autofahrerseite.eu/sicherheit/524-lkw-unfall-stauend...

[2]: https://bz-ticket.de/massenkarambolage-auf-der-a5-kettenreak...

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