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No one wants to have kids anymore

torturechambersmalltalk.substack.com

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Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#421

Post by nicodjimenez »

Retric wrote: post #413
nicodjimenez wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War and disease have existed forever and hasn’t stopped human population from exploding. Sometimes “this time is different” is actually true. What’s different about now is that you have this feedback loop of less kids -> less growth -> less kids. That’s never happened in history because people have never had so much control over their reproductive rights. Most of your ancestors were “surprise” children - you certainl…

Again you just suggested that population will decline not why that would cause economic problems. Let’s assume it does at some point hit 4 billion people and is trending down at that point, that’s still only half the argument. You need to also justify why a world with 4 billion people would be worse for those living in it than today.

Economy is roughly proportional to number of people and economic growth is roughly lagging indicator of birth rates. China for instance has a billion people which is why it’s economy is so huge but as the birth rate has collapsed so has the economic growth.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#422

Post by nicodjimenez »

mcv wrote: post #418
nicodjimenez wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can’t afford enough kids because there isn’t enough economic growth, because there’s not enough young people, the only solution is more people. Banning condoms - or banning premarital sex as Indonesia has done recently - are sort of the only ways out of this mess. You’ll know I am right if you live long enough - another 30 to 40 years and it will be obvious to anyone how catastrophic low birth rates can be.

For the next 30-40 years, the world's population will continue to grow. And banning condoms or sex is a bit of a weird take. I've got the feeling you're not really talking about population growth, but simply about sex you disapprove of.

It’s not about morality it’s about pragmatism. I don’t want to live in a dying country like Japan with suicide forests and old people committing crimes so they can go to jail and actually have human contact, I want to live in a young and vibrant and growing country.

A big part why people are so lonely in USA these days is because of birth rate collapse, people have less siblings and young people are heavily outnumbered by the old, which means that after college they are a minority wherever they go.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#423

Post by Kye »

drc37 wrote: post #131
meowfly wrote: post #87

Elizabeth Warren's book The Two-Income Trap argued that dual income couples priced out single income families from the best locations. It makes sense that DINKs and childless single people are simply reacting to the same economic incentives and now pricing out dual income families. I think high-rents is a major driver of this decision. The USDA puts the cost of your first kid at $14.4k annually edited . That is prima…

I’ll give you a hint, the best locations are not in the city. Check out small towns. The people are down to earth. The cost of living is much less and the people are generally awesome to be around. I love in a small farming town and your neighbors would give the shirt off their back to come help you. One of our daughters has to go to the hospital for about a week and we came home to a clean house and meals for a week…

I've done both. I liked being able to walk around an empty little three-street downtown taking pictures of buildings in various states of decay and renewal without anyone bothering me, but it's no way to live. The people you meet are nice until they aren't, and then they can be dangerous. Younger people there are usually better, but they're all trying to get out.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#424

Post by inetknght »

nicodjimenez wrote: post #369
inetknght wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worse problems than a dying population? I don’t think so. What worth is it to have a population who don't feel they're valued? Forcing others to have children just because you're concerned about population ignores the truly human element. You should instead focus on wanting to help people be happy and feel secure in their economy and self such that they want to have children. Abolishing contraceptives is not the ri…

The human element? Humans like kids naturally especially their own. A lot of women will have kids when they hit 30 and wish they’d started earlier and recognize the incredibly disrespectful attitudes towards women who want to continue human civilization.

> Humans like kids naturally especially their own.

I personally do not like children. I know a lot of unnatural humans then; a lot of humans who neither like kids nor ever want kids of their own. And there's many (!!!) anecdotes of people who had children they do not like or want.

And that's on top of the responsible adults who realize that they can't afford to give a child a healthy loving home when they can't even afford to properly take care of themselves.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#425

Post by nicodjimenez »

inetknght wrote: post #424
nicodjimenez wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The human element? Humans like kids naturally especially their own. A lot of women will have kids when they hit 30 and wish they’d started earlier and recognize the incredibly disrespectful attitudes towards women who want to continue human civilization.

> Humans like kids naturally especially their own. I personally do not like children. I know a lot of unnatural humans then; a lot of humans who neither like kids nor ever want kids of their own. And there's many (!!!) anecdotes of people who had children they do not like or want. And that's on top of the responsible adults who realize that they can't afford to give a child a healthy loving home when they can't even…

Healthy loving homes are over rated. A lot of the best people I know didn’t grow up in such environments and ALL of the worst people I know grew up in “healthy loving homes” where parents made lots of money. For example Jeff Bezos’ mom had him when she was still in high school and struggled quite a bit.

You say you don’t like children because you don’t have any. It’s that simple.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#426

Post by Retric »

nicodjimenez wrote: post #421
Retric wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again you just suggested that population will decline not why that would cause economic problems. Let’s assume it does at some point hit 4 billion people and is trending down at that point, that’s still only half the argument. You need to also justify why a world with 4 billion people would be worse for those living in it than today.

Economy is roughly proportional to number of people and economic growth is roughly lagging indicator of birth rates. China for instance has a billion people which is why it’s economy is so huge but as the birth rate has collapsed so has the economic growth.

It’s per person GDP that matters not total GDP, would you rather be in a tiny rich country like Switzerland or a giant poor one like Pakistan? Also, the data doesn’t support your conclusions in terms of China’s growth.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.GROW?locations=C...

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CHN/china/gdp-growth-r...

Looking at per capita growth rates it even goes in the other way with higher average economic growth as the birth rate declines thus their infamous one child policy. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD.ZG?locat...

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#427

Post by somehnacct3757 »

cloutchaser wrote: post #53
somehnacct3757 wrote: post #33

Kid-having emerges. This (western biased) article is blaming the victim. An entire generation bled dry by student loans for useless degrees, unable to buy homes that their elders view as retirement funds. A thousand and one more entertaining things to do online which don't risk creating 18-year bundles of debt. And absolutely no idea how to break the cycle for your offspring. Pick one thing to fix and spend your life…

The trouble is, the numbers just don’t support your hypothesis. Birth rates are falling in almost every country on the planet, however poor they are, however rich they are, however large student loans are. This just isn’t the root of the issue. It’s pretty common knowledge that mostly the richer a country is the less babies it has. So, maybe research what the actual problem is, before projecting your own views of soc…

I think you missed the point of my comment. I don't believe the author's premise at all, that population will decline. The population is still growing as it always has. Why would it stop now? The author makes no argument that it will and the data shows it hasn't. To lerp the declining growth rate derivative out a few decades is as ridiculous as the people who lerp the population count directly. This is Henny Penny stuff.

So instead I critique the author's views on society. It's not women having careers, prevalence of safe sex, or tinder usage to blame. Has anyone tried blaming the avocado toast yet?

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#428

Post by DonHopkins »

rapsey wrote: post #310
DonHopkins wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Including his own children being empty and sad if they don't deliver him grandchildren. That's just terrible parenting, to be so judgemental and demeaning of your own children. Edit: Then address my question instead of ignoring it. Why by your own judgemental attitude would your own children be any less empty and sad than anyone else if they chose not to reproduce themselves? And how are you not being a bad judgement…

Nice straw man you have built here. I did not answer your question because it is absurd. There is a difference between having an opinion and forcing that opinion on others. My children are their own people and they are allowed to disagree and I will not hold it against them. Because I love them more than they can understand until they have children themselves. I however hope they will be confident and flexible in the…

You didn't answer my questions because they made my point and you don't want to follow what you said through to its logical conclusions and ultimate consequences.

It's not my questions that are absurd, it's your condescending attitude and statements, and I specifically asked you those questions to point out the absurdity of what you said, and by refusing to answer you proved my point.

Your demeaning judgements could apply just as much to the lack of value and sadness and emptiness of your own children's lives if they decide not to breed as they do against everyone else, which is my point that you're unable to acknowledge because you delusionally believe your own children are somehow magically different than everyone else in the universe, and you unfairly exempt them from your harsh degrading criticism of other people.

They're not, and your condescending attitude applies as much to your own children as to anyone else.

It's judgemental condescending parents like you who kick their kids out onto the streets because they're disappointed in them and believe they're sad and worthless for not wanting to breed when they find out they're gay or lesbian, so their kids don't trust them, are afraid to come out to them, hide their true feelings from their own parents, and often commit suicide, because they understand how harsh and judgemental their parents are, from all the condescending hateful things they say about other people all their lives.

You only judge that other people's lives are sad and empty for not breeding because they're not your children, so you have a double standard, and don't want to admit that. But kids can see through that, and know you'll ultimately judge them just as harshly too.

Part of being a good parent is being mature enough to not think and speak in such a childish nasty way, and to not be so condescending and demeaning.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#429

Post by gls2ro »

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #36

> But deep down I get it. Babies are a huge opportunity cost. Financially speaking, they are like winning the lottery but backwards. You can't even think of having one without cancelling your subscription to a good night's sleep. And if you take into account inflation, economic recession, and the rest of the news cycle's highlight reel, even a one-child family can seem to have one too many mouths to fish Lego pieces…

Just to preface this with: I don't try to convince you of anything, nor anyone else.

But there is a side of this conversation that I almost never see discussed:

What I want to add to this conversation is the following: it is a privilege (in the true sense that only a small group can afford to do this) for you to be able to decide not to have children and keep your conform. And this priviledge relies or borrows on the other people deciding to have children.

Because if nobody will have children then your retirement will be meaningless in the future. Nothing to invest in, no economical growth, no food, no products, no services.

Who will take care of you in the hospital when you will be old? As example? Who will pay for those (younger than you) doctors education?

Some parents, right?

So what you are exercising is a priviledge => available to a small group of people because the others are supporting the costs.

hot take: If the society will ever want to make this fair it should put higher taxes on people without children. As they need to spend money to buy good sleep and comfort in the future.

I even dare to say put a tax close to the estimated cost for having a children. Why? Just to make sure that the sleep is in the right balance when thinking about the future.

I repeat: this is not about the individual decision itself, everyone should do as they see it fit. But about the fact that we are part of a society and there are duties to that aswell.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#430

Post by notch656a »

gls2ro wrote: post #429
thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #36

> But deep down I get it. Babies are a huge opportunity cost. Financially speaking, they are like winning the lottery but backwards. You can't even think of having one without cancelling your subscription to a good night's sleep. And if you take into account inflation, economic recession, and the rest of the news cycle's highlight reel, even a one-child family can seem to have one too many mouths to fish Lego pieces…

Just to preface this with: I don't try to convince you of anything, nor anyone else. But there is a side of this conversation that I almost never see discussed: What I want to add to this conversation is the following: it is a privilege (in the true sense that only a small group can afford to do this) for you to be able to decide not to have children and keep your conform. And this priviledge relies or borrows on the…

Nah the first world can just rob third world elderly of their retirement by just importing in their most skilled/intelligent workers and spitting them back out when EvilCorp finishes chewing them up and cancels their work visa. No reason to have a child in the first world when the nominal comparative advantage in pricing is a little Bangladeshi child.
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