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TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

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Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently they've figured it out: TSMC tackles Taiwan drought with plant to reuse water for chips https://archive.ph/XIff9

Yes, exactly. In places like Taiwan TSMC just didn't need to account for recycling/treating the water - I'm sure it's cheaper not to do so. In Arizona it's a requirement so it's built into the cost of investment.

It depends on how many typhoons fill the reservoirs though. This year we only had a few.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#232

Onshoring is a logical result of improved automation. When labor costs lessen, transportation and logistics become the primary concern. Wouldn’t be surprised if 100 years from now most final good assembly is done locally. Of course sometimes raw materials and inputs are more expensive to transport than the finished good, so there will always be cases where long distance transportation of finished products is still pr…

Semiconductors are probably one of the lightest products relative to their costs.

So as you alluded to, the long distance logistics of delivering the finished products, have a negligent impact on it's price.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#233
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's only solid game theory if one side doesn't have escalatory dominance. For example, during the cold war, the US always had far, far fewer troops in Europe than the Soviet Union, and didn't have anywhere near the sea-lift capacity to transport the quantities of men and material necessary across the Atlantic to defend Europe. But we had nukes, and so we had plans to nuke Germany in case Warsaw pact forces invad…

I'll confess that I don't understand Taiwan's importance to China. They can put a certain amount of their resources into taking Taiwan -- which will absolutely not gain them access to TSMC's production capacity under any conditions, due to a web of Western dependencies that runs deeper than any rabbit hole -- or they can put the same resources into improving their own economic strength. Why wouldn't they choose the l…

Really you need to understand your opponent's utility function before immediately leaping to making summary judgments that China is not acting in its own interest.

For example, knowing that mainland China and Taiwan are the remnants of a civil war, in which mainland China has wanted to absorb Taiwan long before it had any chip fabs, as China views itself as the nation of the Chinese people as a whole, with Taiwan a historical part of China. This is the Chinese view. You may not agree with this view, but that doesn't give you the right invent some fake view and ascribe it to the Chinese, one that is easier for you to understand. 600,000 Americans died in our civil war and great slaughter and economic destruction was committed in order to prevent a portion of the US from seceding. Was that irrational? Maybe to someone who can only understand the North Invading the South because it wants access to Southern Cotton, but that wasn't the payoff function.

This idea that Taiwan = place where chips are made is the equivalent of viewing the Confederacy as where cotton was grown. It is not the Chinese view. Chips wont be made in Taiwan in the future, and they weren't made there in the past. Taiwan is much more than this, it is a population of Chinese people living in a region that was viewed as a historical part of China, and thus China views Taiwan as a rogue province first, and a chip maker second. Just because you view Taiwan as a chip producer does not mean that China does, or that China even cares about the chip production nearly as much as the "rogue province" part.

Being able to step outside of your own values and understand someone else's values is table stakes for doing this game theory exercise.

Moreover, the assumption that the military development of China which is ostensibly done to become strong enough to conquer Taiwan (but which would probably happen anyway) somehow comes at the expense of Chinese "development" -- is just not how China (or anyone else) views development. Most people view development as both military and economic. China's rise necessarily includes military power, and it's not at all clear that their military investment is so high as to cause their overall rise to be slowed. Certainly the US is more than happy to spend a trillion on defense each year and invade some country ever few years, yet we attribute much of our development to the growth of our military-industrial complex.

> If they had spent a fraction of the effort and energy they've historically devoted to harming other countries on improving their own country instead, they would be way ahead of the game... yet they didn't, and don't show any indication of changing course.

Either indulge in propaganda that vilifies the behavior of your enemies and attributes to them irrationality, or understand your opponent well enough to be able to predict their behavior but not both.

So this explains the "not being able to understand the behavior of X" -- you have to tear away the delusions first and view the world through a clear eye, and then you will be able to understand.

For example, Russia isn't the one who invaded or attacked 125 countries in the last 30 years. Is America acting against its own interests by doing that? No, they may be acting against your interests, but they are not acting against their own interests. Each of those 125 attacks against foreign nations had some reason, and were consistent with the view of people who view themselves as basically decent and seeking to protect their own legitimate interests. The US did not do that to "hurt other countries". The moment you stop believing that, you will find yourself unable to understand the policy of the United States. America will become a riddle. But worse, when you engage with America, you will find that they behave unpredictably, and so your geopolitical strategy will fail. The exact same is true for Russia, or China, or Iran, or Israel. They are all basically decent people in their own moral framework trying to look out for their own political interests in a rational way. No better or worse than the United States.

To be tall enough for the ride that is geopolitics, you must assume good faith, a desire to meet legitimate interests, and basic decency in their own moral framework on the part of your political opponents. The moment you slip into caricatures and cartoonish villainy, then you become blind to others and lose understanding. You seal yourself off and are not able to navigate the treacherous waters of the world, which requires you to both know yourself and your opponent.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe even a reaction to the pandemic. Which means a couple years ago at least.

I think not being able to procure n95 masks because mask production was all off-shored, particularly to China, was a real wake up call that supply chain security is integral to national security. Ukraine was the moment that showed that: "No two countries that both have a McDonald's have ever fought a war against each other." is a false idea. Hong Kong made it clear that the idea of increasing prosperity in China will…

> Hong Kong made it clear that the idea of increasing prosperity in China will not lead to it's liberalization, nor can China be relied upon to be bound by documents that are "historical documents that no longer have any practical significance."

This is a great point, it is underestimated I think in how what happened in Hong Kong impacted perceptions of China. Was the first clearcut example that once China was in they would not respect prior agreements (like around having 2 systems in Hong Kong) which led to a wake up call for what letting China have a big political role in your society would mean.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#235
post #142
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a nuclear plant nearby in AZ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_... Nuclear + Solar seems like it would be a pretty ideal mix in a hot climate, especially given that peak demand for air conditioning coincides with solar maximum output, and Nuclear could handle some of the base/overnight load.

Do these plants not require tons of water?

> Do these plants not require tons of water?

If you’re referring to the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station, it’s downstream of water treatment plants and is effectively evaporating the water from the effluent stream [1], in other words it’s cooled by 100% recycled water. Probably a significant amount of the evaporated water returns to the local area.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_...

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This huge of an investment in a tech where TSMC will face competition from fabs in lower-cost countries almost certainly means the company believes it can use extensive automation to avoid having labor costs sink their ability to compete on price. What countries are you imagining that will suddenly become competitive in semiconductor manufacturing? As far as I know there are no up and coming companies of note. (Com…

"Permanently prevented" -- semi manufacturing is an engineering problem, not magic. Engineering problems can be solved, unless you think Chinese people are inherently inferior engineers.

It‘s not that easy to duplicate the institutional knowledge of companies like Zeiss, for example, otherwise they would have a lot of competition already.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#237

Well that seems significant. Article says the chips in the 2nd fabs will be better than the first. And will meet all domestic US demand. Not sure what all that includes. I wonder how domestic the full supply chain is. If the US is relying on China for rare earth metals or something.

I recall reading that modern chips use argon-neon-flourine lasers, (roughly 75% of the world's neon goes into the semiconductor industry) and ~50% of the world's neon comes from Ukraine.

This is because the Haber process, necessary for fertilizer, involves industrial quantities of forced air, and the USSR put adapters on their Haber process plants for gathering inert gases for titanium welding back in the 1970's, and those are now used to gather materials for semiconductors around the world. I don't know enough whether US or other Haber plants could also be adapted to gather up these noble gases, but presumably it would be more expensive than using what the Ukraine provided, or else it would have been done before.

That is one issue among many, obviously, but it suggests the scale of the problem for making all domestic supply chains.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#238
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably also hedging for geopolitical risk? Not sure how only having facilities in a country at least somewhat likely to be invaded in the next few years affects the stock price but it probably doesn't hurt to put one in the middle of a country very unlikely to be invaded and very likely to want to purchase chips built domestically.

Fun fact most experts consider the US uninvadable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_the_United_States#...

Another fun fact. There were incursions on both US coasts during WWII. Neither were significant:

Long Island, Florida, and Maine invasion by nazi spies swimming to shore from German submarines: https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/nazi-saboteurs-and-....

Japanese in Attu and Kiska islands in Alaska: https://www.history.com/.amp/topics/world-war-ii/battle-of-t...

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#239
post #34

Well that seems significant. Article says the chips in the 2nd fabs will be better than the first. And will meet all domestic US demand. Not sure what all that includes. I wonder how domestic the full supply chain is. If the US is relying on China for rare earth metals or something.

The article is wrote for tech illiterate audience. They will use EUV for the first factory (2024). And High-NA EUV (next gen from ASML) for the second factory in 2026. 4nm,3nm are just marketing terms, and means nothing, since they stopped naming nodes according to their actual size since 16nm.

But words are just, like, socially-defined metaphysical constructs that only occasionally and coincidentally overlap with physical reality, man.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#240
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll confess that I don't understand Taiwan's importance to China. They can put a certain amount of their resources into taking Taiwan -- which will absolutely not gain them access to TSMC's production capacity under any conditions, due to a web of Western dependencies that runs deeper than any rabbit hole -- or they can put the same resources into improving their own economic strength. Why wouldn't they choose the l…

Really you need to understand your opponent's utility function before immediately leaping to making summary judgments that China is not acting in its own interest. For example, knowing that mainland China and Taiwan are the remnants of a civil war, in which mainland China has wanted to absorb Taiwan long before it had any chip fabs, as China views itself as the nation of the Chinese people as a whole, with Taiwan a h…

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