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TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

cnbc.com

51–60 of 294 posts

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#51
post #34

Well that seems significant. Article says the chips in the 2nd fabs will be better than the first. And will meet all domestic US demand. Not sure what all that includes. I wonder how domestic the full supply chain is. If the US is relying on China for rare earth metals or something.

The article is wrote for tech illiterate audience. They will use EUV for the first factory (2024). And High-NA EUV (next gen from ASML) for the second factory in 2026. 4nm,3nm are just marketing terms, and means nothing, since they stopped naming nodes according to their actual size since 16nm.

I don't think a tech illiterate audience has a clue with 4nm or 3nm mean

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#52
post #45

Don't these fabs need like an insane amount of water? Why would they build it of all places in arizona which as far as I know barely meets drinking water requirements (at least at some cities) and is basically mostly a desert?

Some people said because Arizona is in relatively stable seismic region in the US. But I don't buy it. TSMC fab in Taiwan is also located in seismic prone region. Compared to the cost of the fab itself, seismic isolation system is relatively affordable.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#53
post #45

Don't these fabs need like an insane amount of water? Why would they build it of all places in arizona which as far as I know barely meets drinking water requirements (at least at some cities) and is basically mostly a desert?

I was curious about this a while back. My cursory research showed that these facilities are actually phenomenal at recycling water to the point that they're not actually guzzling water at the rate you might expect.

...deputy spokesperson Nina Kao said via email that “approximately 65% of the water used in the Arizona fab will come from TSMC’s in-house water reclamation system...

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/joannaallhands...

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#54
post #35

I'm interested in the financial aspect of this. Assuming US Fabs are more expensive than in Taiwan that then must mean lower margins or higher prices. I wonder if Apple for example has said that they are prepared to pay a premium to ensure diversity of supply?

Apple doesn't care that much about cost of chips. Their margins are wide enough that even a substantial increase in chip pricing won't significantly impact their profits.

I don't really think this is true. Apple's margins are so wide because they care about the cost of all their components.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#55
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it were bad for Taiwan, geopolitics is about more than Taiwan. But I’m not sure this is bad for Taiwan: today, China can wipe out TSMC overnight. With these fabs there will be Taiwanese revenue streams coming from mainland US, which streams can support Taiwan government and military. Walk me through why it’s bad for Taiwan to be more economically diversified?

Well for one the US won't be so inclined to defend TW so much. Sure, there will be posturing, maybe even a proxy war like in Ukraine, but generally speaking the US will not be sending troops anymore, now that the golden goose has nested on its shores.

I'm guessing Taiwan received quite a carrot in order to get their approval for the TSMC expansion.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iPhone SoC was made by Samsung in Austin for many years, so this has already happened. At the time everyone assumed that Apple wanted to diversify away from Samsung for other reasons which were not necessarily financial.

> At the time everyone assumed that Apple wanted to diversify away from Samsung for other reasons which were not necessarily financial. When Apple was dual sourcing chips from both Samsung and TSMC, the Samsung version of the A9 had a ~10% reduction in battery life compared to the TSMC version, although the performance was nearly identical otherwise. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/iphone-6s-a9-samsung-vs-ts...

The article you linked actually reports the Samsung version lasted longer than the TSMC chip (the opposite of what you've stated).

Samsung was on a 14nm fab process.

TSMC was on a 16nm fab process.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#57
This + the recent news that Apple is planning to diversify production out of China (1) is hard not to read into regarding the US' view of where US/China relations are heading . . . any geopolitical armchair experts have a view?

(1) https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-china-factory-protests-fo...

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#58
post #45

Don't these fabs need like an insane amount of water? Why would they build it of all places in arizona which as far as I know barely meets drinking water requirements (at least at some cities) and is basically mostly a desert?

I came here for this comment. Thank you for bringing this up. Although Phoenix is one of America's most progressive cities with regard to minimizing per-capita water usage, the whole prospect of the city of Phoenix was ill-conceived from the beginning. Of course that doesn't matter now -- the city is there. But I hope that TSMC knows what they're getting themselves in to.

An article from August 2021: Water shortages loom over future semiconductor fabs in Arizona https://www.theverge.com/22628925/water-semiconductor-shorta...

> Chipmakers are setting up shop in Arizona as drought worsens

> Major semiconductor manufacturers looking to expand in Arizona will likely be spared from water cuts induced by an unprecedented water shortage in the Southwest, at least for now. As part of the scramble to end a shortage of another kind — the global dearth in semiconductor chips — both Intel and TSMC plan to open new facilities in Arizona. But they’re setting up shop just as one of the worst droughts in decades grows worse across the Western US.

> ...

> While Intel recycles much of its water, more fabs will mean it will need to send even more water through its systems. The company says that Arizona has been “vital” to Intel’s operations for more than four decades. The state is already home to its first “mega-factory network” and its newest semiconductor fab. Intel used more than 5.2 billion gallons of water in Arizona in 2020 — roughly 20 percent of which was reclaimed water, according to its most recent corporate responsibility report.

> ...

> TSMC said in an email to The Verge that for now it doesn’t expect the water shortage to have “any impact” on its plan to build a new fab in Arizona, although it says it will “continue to monitor the water supply situation closely.”

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#59
It's interesting to see semi fab factories becoming a hot thing here in the states with an entire campus being rolled out in Ohio along with expansions and further growth in the southwest. Can only mean good things for workers as more options become available.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#60
post #45

Don't these fabs need like an insane amount of water? Why would they build it of all places in arizona which as far as I know barely meets drinking water requirements (at least at some cities) and is basically mostly a desert?

Water can be piped around cheaply. Worst case they pump it in from nearby states
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