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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#321

Post by nerdponx »

kube-system wrote: post #221
nerdponx wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Market has spoken right or wrong. I call BS on this. The non-pouch detergents disappeared, that much I know. I strongly doubt people had stopped buying gel and powder. I suspect that some bright bulb at Johnson & Johnson or wherever did the math and realized that pouch margins were higher than gel and powder margins.

> The non-pouch detergents disappeared ? I still see them everywhere. And a quick Amazon search for “cascade complete” lists gel as the first result and powder as the third.

The local supermarkets all stock literally one or two boxes on the shelf at a time, even though I know they have more in the back because as soon as I buy one it's put back on the shelf the next day. Something really funny is going on, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some contractual arrangement to artificially limit the amount that appeared in stock, to make it seem less appealing.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#322

Post by biorach »

Macha wrote: post #132
yamtaddle wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From other comments it's looking like this one of those US/European divide things, with compartments for salt being uncommon on US dishwashers except for a few rare higher-end models/brands that are likely common to both continents (due to low volume in the US not justifying a localized version, I'd guess). I'm middle-aged and in the US and this thread is the first time I've heard of adding salt to a dishwasher.

Seems to be not quite EU/US. At least in Ireland we don't have salt compartments either. Maybe an anglosphere/not division?

> At least in Ireland we don't have salt compartments either

I'm pretty sure the majority of dishwashers sold here have salt compartments - I've never seen one without one.

Much of Ireland has very hard water.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#323

Post by egberts1 »

blibble wrote: post #168
m463 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder about sulfates, specifically SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate - which has many whack-a-mole names). SLS is a surficant, and although not named in this study, it has been shown in other studies to interfere with mucous membranes (canker sores, etc) I would wonder if that happens in the gut too. It is in many things. toothpaste, shampoo, dishwasher and laundry detergents, and lots more Since people are trying to avo…

> Since people are trying to avoid SLS, MANY tricky marketing synonyms have appeared to obfuscate ingredient lists: this seems to be almost the definition of evil people are trying to avoid something specific that makes them ill, so they try to hide it from them instead? scum

Worse, these SLS gets the EPA Safe Product seal too.

https://www.epa.gov/saferchoice/safer-ingredients#searchList

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#324

Post by ornornor »

zorgmonkey wrote: post #297
stephen_g wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article references another article about SLS in toothpaste (unfortunately not accessible without paying) - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00016357.2019.1... Just seeing that makes me want to switch toothpaste. There looks to be an 'Oral B Toothpaste Pure' that doesn't have SLS or colourants, might give that a go.

Do you happen to know of somewhere in the US that sells that 'Oral B Toothpaste Pure'? Everywhere I can find that sells seems to be in Europe or Australia which I assume would mean paying a stupid amount in shipping fees.

Sensodyne is easy to find in the Americas and has at least one variant without SLS.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#325

Post by ornornor »

jkepler wrote: post #152
JonathonW wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, they've only tested one professional dishwasher and one household dishwasher using one specific formulation of rinse aid. There's enough here to indicate a need for further investigation, but not enough data to come to any overall conclusions about commercial or household dishwasher safety in general.

They call for further study at the end, acknowledging that their data was all /in vivo/ in a lab, and not direct data in humans. Thus, while they claim to have demonstrated a mechanism, they make no claims that it works the same way in people.

> They call for further study at the end

Tangent: most papers seem to do that… which confuses me. It feels like it’s basically saying to discard everything the paper talked about because to be actually sure you’d need to investigate more than they did.

Is it a pro forma formula or does it really mean what I understand it to?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#326

Post by rapnie »

nano9 wrote: post #307
magila wrote: post #78

I suffered from chronic diarrhea for years which I attributed to Crohn's disease. This seemed obvious since diarrhea is a very common symptom of Crohn's, but its onset had been several years after I was diagnosed and prior to that I had tended more towards the opposite problem (constipation). I was thus always suspicious that the root cause lay elsewhere. After much experimenting I found that if I ran my dishwasher t…

I have a similar tale to tell. Ever since I've taken activated charcoal regularly, I have felt considerable improvement in my digestion and overall well-being. I feel happier, even. The charcoal is "sourced from non-GMO coconuts" which I don't necessarily believe but I take it as a sign that it's a higher quality product instead of repackaged industrial waste (like a lot of the market probably is). I take 1000mg of a…

Not directly related to the food products as your refer to them, but a couple of years ago there was the big Cradle-to-Cradle "Waste is Food" hype. Loved by many companies and governments. As a result in The Netherlands this whole paper bureaucracy appeared where through all kinds of tricks you can transform almost any waste back into 'building materials' that are good for the market again. In many cases waste processing became extra profitable. Companies get paid for waste removal at some industry, do the magic transformation tricks, and sell building material at premium price.

So waste = food = money literally without much processing, and effectively just waste = money. A process where waste conveniently disappears on paper only and is spread out over the lands without many people complaining. It is like waste processing of the 60's but way smarter.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#327

Post by hgomersall »

m463 wrote: post #116
magila wrote: post #78

I suffered from chronic diarrhea for years which I attributed to Crohn's disease. This seemed obvious since diarrhea is a very common symptom of Crohn's, but its onset had been several years after I was diagnosed and prior to that I had tended more towards the opposite problem (constipation). I was thus always suspicious that the root cause lay elsewhere. After much experimenting I found that if I ran my dishwasher t…

I wonder about sulfates, specifically SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate - which has many whack-a-mole names). SLS is a surficant, and although not named in this study, it has been shown in other studies to interfere with mucous membranes (canker sores, etc) I would wonder if that happens in the gut too. It is in many things. toothpaste, shampoo, dishwasher and laundry detergents, and lots more Since people are trying to avo…

There's apparently evidence that emulsifiers added to food are problematic regarding mucus membranes, as well as gut biome. We try to avoid foods that contain them as additives as much as possible (and they really are everywhere).

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#328

Post by joshenders »

someweirdperson wrote: post #282
tpxl wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> recommend Miele vacuums which are fully sealed with proper gaskets for maximum suction and minimum allergen leaking/spreading...Dyson strongly not recommended Have you tried a water vaccuum? :)

Is that a vacuum cleaner that can suck water, or are there vacuums that use water to clean the exhaust like scrubbers on ships do?

There is actually, it’s called Rainbow Vacuum. They used to (maybe still do?) sell them door to door MLM style but the vacuum is actually good in my experience with them.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#329

Post by rocqua »

ornornor wrote: post #325
jkepler wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They call for further study at the end, acknowledging that their data was all /in vivo/ in a lab, and not direct data in humans. Thus, while they claim to have demonstrated a mechanism, they make no claims that it works the same way in people.

> They call for further study at the end Tangent: most papers seem to do that… which confuses me. It feels like it’s basically saying to discard everything the paper talked about because to be actually sure you’d need to investigate more than they did. Is it a pro forma formula or does it really mean what I understand it to?

Generally, answering questions will raise new ones. It is very unlikely for a single paper to be the end of a line of research. Sometimes the new questions are quite fundamental (like here), sometimes the new questions are details, and sometimes the further research is "try this same method on this other known big problem".

Besides the inherent fractal nature of how science works, there is also an incentive. Being a scientist in a solved field is not very smart. Or even more cynically the 'further work' section says 'please pay me to do these things next'.

But I think the cynical view is not as important here. Research tends to be strictly limited in time, and for good reason. During the research you will probably find new directions, and also get insight into what old questions are interesting, or what new methods matter. All of these are great cause to include a further work section.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#330

Post by MereInterest »

dhritzkiv wrote: post #189
XorNot wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What he got wrong was... You might want to use less detergent to avoid residues. The pouches are still pointless. We switched and it almost completely solved our "dishes not getting cleaned properly" problem.

Same. Switching to powder has done a lot for us in getting dishes cleaner, and we can dial in the amount of powder needed for the particular soil level of a load. The fact that it's cheaper per load, and the box fits more neatly under the sink are added benefits.

And if your hands are slightly damp, the cardboard box for the powder doesn't stick to your fingers, where a dissolvable membrane would start dissolving on you.
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