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The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#61
post #38

I was bullied pretty severely as a kid. So bad in fact I was put on medication just to deal with it. I was a weaker kid when I was younger owing to the fact I was sick a lot. In America there is a concept of "zero tolerance" that keeps the bullied compliant and the bullies in charge. It was not until I started to get very violent that the bullying stopped. I would fight at a moments notice even sometimes in classroom…

>> Bullies aren't beat enough at home

This I have to disagree with. Some of them I believe have a terrible home life and are handing down the abuse to whomever is a weak target.

You may be right in other cases though, and that had never occurred to me. Lack of respect and self control may stem from neglect or lack of parenting rather than abuse.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#62
When I was coming up, especially in middle school, we were always told that you should just ignore bullies and they would go away. This, of course, never actually worked. And anyone who did fight back against their bullies were punished just as severely, if not moreso if they swung first, as the bully. This entire approach was complete BS and only served to enable bullies because they now know that their victims either won't fight back or, if they do, the victim will receive most of the consequence.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think its vitally important that all children learn some form of self-defense (boxing, karate, BJJ, it doesn't matter). I only realized this way later in life when I started training in Muay Thai and found I had way more confidence standing up to other men, both because I knew how to handle myself and because I wasn't as afraid of getting punched in the face. Bullies only go away if you make them go away. Fighting back is the only real solution victims have in the absence of adult supervision (which is often the situation). You may be punished, but the sense of catharsis more than makes up for that.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#63
post #9

Reminder that this study is only showing a correlation. It could also be the well-known effect that "weaker" (physically or mentally) people are more likely to be bullied. The way to test causation is to have a "control" group with normal environmental bullying levels, and a second group which is otherwise identical to the first, randomly targeted by the scientists for extra bullying. This would of course be unethica…

"It could be that "weak" (physically and/or mentally) people tend to get bullied more." This is absolutely true in my experience. It's the same way that many criminals prey on the smaller/older/weaker in society. Why pick a target that has a good chance of winning in a fight? I'm sure plenty of others have anecdotes, but I fought a bully, won, and they were always friendly after that.

This is why I am going to emphasize to my son that if someone begins to bully him, the sooner he corrects the bully's assessment of him the sooner it will likely stop. This may include violence (with many caveats) if necessary, as frankly, it's the only language they often understand and respect. I am not happy that this is the case, but this behavior appears to be a universal part of the human condition. Based on my experience, adult intervention or even supervision cannot be counted on, so it will be something that eventually he will need to learn to handle himself.

Bullying in it's most common and less extreme forms appears to be a way of reinforcing group conformity and norms, as it's often directed at those who are different in appearance or behavior. By calling attention to this with name calling or teasing, they publicly demonstrate their own in-group status and as a side-effect also pressure the target to conform to group expectations. Over time, this can be just as insidious and damaging even though violence may not be always involved.

In the most pathological form, you have a person that has a lot of internal uncertainty around their own position in the social hierarchy (which actually may be quite high already and part of what makes this pathological) for which bullying is a way to assert their dominance over another. These are the bullies that we all know and which seem to fixate on a particular target or group, and are the type I alluded to in my opening paragraph. They are not necessarily spoiling for a fight (that is something else entirely and distinguishing the two can be difficult) but rather have identified their target as being someone weak or low status enough that they will not fight back nor will anyone rise to defend them. However, if the target does fight back and even if they lose, if this happens consistently then that is often enough to update the calculation on their end about whether the benefits outweigh the costs (after all, they could eventually lose the fight or at least it could be close enough that they don't win convincingly which is almost as bad) and their attention will shift elsewhere.

There is also a greater likelihood that others may stand up for you if you stand up for yourself. It is another tendency of human psychology that I have observed that those who do nothing and essentially "take it" are viewed with contempt even if those observers also disapprove of the bullying. There seems to be some general undercurrent of disgust with perceived weakness, but this is perhaps rooted in some sense that the risk of intervention is less likely to be reciprocated. After all, if the victim doesn't appear willing or able to do this for themselves, why would they be expected to do so for someone else?

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#64
post #28

It's actually a different problem than most people realize. What happens is that you have criminal assault and abuse being tolerated by adults and then blaming the victims. To try to understand, take the behavior of the "bullies" and imagine it is being done by adults. It really comes down to a lack of responsibility and accountability for managing the behavior of children in schools. Instead of dealing with children…

I’m not sure if there’s data/studies on this, but I feel that bullying is a bigger problem in the US than in eg Europe and Asia. If so, would like to see more discussion on why that is and how we could improve things by comparing

Not sure about Asia, but in Europe bullying is as common as in US.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#65
post #2

“ studies suggest that public health interventions could aim at preventing children from becoming the target of bullying behaviours from an early age.” Sounds almost like victim blaming. If true, if there’s something about the bullied that causes them to be bullied, perhaps bullying is actually a form of social correction. Not that nature should be our guide, but often harsh social behavior is functional from an evol…

Who determines what is socially correct?

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#66
post #28

It's actually a different problem than most people realize. What happens is that you have criminal assault and abuse being tolerated by adults and then blaming the victims. To try to understand, take the behavior of the "bullies" and imagine it is being done by adults. It really comes down to a lack of responsibility and accountability for managing the behavior of children in schools. Instead of dealing with children…

I’m not sure if there’s data/studies on this, but I feel that bullying is a bigger problem in the US than in eg Europe and Asia. If so, would like to see more discussion on why that is and how we could improve things by comparing

I came to similar conclusion. My children go to an elementary school in Canada and there is bullying even in good schools. The things that these little kids do is incomprehensible to me. I went to elementary school in USSR and I never saw what my children experience in Canada(at least I don't remember it, but I do know that the schools in USSR had bullying issues with teenagers).

Is it because children have too much freedom in school, innatentive/overworked teachers? My wife tends to think it's the food(sugars) and TV/computer games (even first graders spend significant chunks of their free time playing Minecraft and other games). Is it because of playdates culture and not being free to play on the street with neighbours after school which helps socializing kids?

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#67
post #36

Being rather contrary here, but is there any evidence that bullying actually improves some people's lives? As a victim of childhood bullying, the experience was awful, but I learned a thing or two as well.

If you look at countries that have large private and comprehensive education systems (and which aren't well-segregated like the US), it is very obvious that you are permanently ruining the lives of hundreds of thousands of kids every year.

Whether you learn something from it or not, the purpose of school is to learn. If you went into work every day and had someone beating you up every day, would you be productive? Probably not (and btw, the only reason we have systems where this happens at all is because of what adults want, not what kids want).

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#68
I'm always concerned when I see these types of studies that the conclusions drawn from them will lead to "cures" that are worse than the disease. God help us should we ever succeed in eliminating all the challenges of life - we'll evolve into spineless blobs.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#69
post #28

It's actually a different problem than most people realize. What happens is that you have criminal assault and abuse being tolerated by adults and then blaming the victims. To try to understand, take the behavior of the "bullies" and imagine it is being done by adults. It really comes down to a lack of responsibility and accountability for managing the behavior of children in schools. Instead of dealing with children…

I’m not sure if there’s data/studies on this, but I feel that bullying is a bigger problem in the US than in eg Europe and Asia. If so, would like to see more discussion on why that is and how we could improve things by comparing

Not to downplay the severity of the problem in America, but bullying is pretty damn severe in East Asia. The "nail that sticks up gets hammered down" quote often used to describe the situation there. Search "japan bullying" in Youtube and you'll find a long list of videos talking about the issue in Japan in particular.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#70
post #38

I was bullied pretty severely as a kid. So bad in fact I was put on medication just to deal with it. I was a weaker kid when I was younger owing to the fact I was sick a lot. In America there is a concept of "zero tolerance" that keeps the bullied compliant and the bullies in charge. It was not until I started to get very violent that the bullying stopped. I would fight at a moments notice even sometimes in classroom…

I was also bullied a lot. Especially between first and eight grade. I was much bigger than everyone else but I would never fight back. I always felt bad about potentially hurting someone else so I would just take it.

The kids couldn’t actually physically damage me since I was so much bigger. They did cause a lot of psychological harm. I had a very negative predisposition towards anyone that I met. I just assumed everyone would be hostile towards me and would want to make fun of me. I still struggle with this mindset and I am in my thirties. I will usually be very shut off from people I do not know.

There were a couple of times that I did stand up for myself. Each time the bullying completely stopped.

I thought I was being the better person by not fighting back but that was not true. I was being harmless. That harmlessness invited more violence.

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