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U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

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Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#211

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

loandbehold wrote: post #71
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is the #1 smartphone brand in China. American companies are much more active in the Chinese market than vice-versa. If China starts reacting in kind, a lot of American companies will be in for a world of hurt.

Manufactured in China, with forced technology transfer.

Assembled in China, by a Taiwanese company, mostly using imported chips, with most of the profit going to Apple.

And there's no forced technology transfer (who would they transfer it to - the Taiwanese company Foxconn?).

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#212

Post by 71a54xd »

theli wrote: post #21
71a54xd wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, why would you sell weapons to even an ally (who at some point could broker those weapons / IP to a near-pear adversary or grey area state) anywhere near as capable as your own? Obviously, when it comes to terrorist groups and broke eastern european nations the U.S. has made mistakes with this line of reasoning. Re: captured weapons in ukraine ending up on the black market...

I don't believe there has been any confirmation of weapons sent to Ukraine ending up on the black market or has there?

If Russia is bargaining with Iran trading "hundreds" of captured anti-tank weapons and guided artillery munitions... it doesn't take a genius to come to conclusions as to what other non-state affiliated actors are doing...

Ukraine has also arrested a number of Ukrainians in known smuggling rings selling captured weapons on the black market [1].

[0] https://news.sky.com/story/russia-gave-eur140m-and-captured-...

[1] https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/ukraine-war-weapons-bl...

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#213

Post by 71a54xd »

ausudhz wrote: post #26
71a54xd wrote: post #12

That took long enough! Glad we're finally looking out for national security interests, even if it was partially incentivized by economic protectionist ideas - it's naive to think China hasn't done the same to other foreign tech companies.

Ericsson and Nokia sell their 5G technology in China. Actually funny enough they were siding China too on this in Europe because a ban of Chinese tech in Europe could've resulted in a ban of European tech in China. and for anyone that doesn't live under a rock, they know pretty well that china is far a bigger market than Europe

Unfortunately, the free countries where they live facilitate their business... Too bad they can't sell to a country that enslaves ethnic minorities anymore :(

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#215

Post by rob-olmos »

bagels wrote: post #179
blurbleblurble wrote: post #144

Why are the stakes so high? Well, research "integrated communications and sensing" to find out. IEEE is pushing this paradigm shift. The radio hardware isn't just being used for communications between active devices anymore. It'll be useable for passive and biometric sensing applications, including but not limited to passive localization and identification of people without phones. Next generation wireless standards…

Which standard? Where can we read about how these standards are designed to facilitate biometric sensing?

I believe they're referring to 802.11bf "WLAN sensing"

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#216

Post by MichaelZuo »

dilyevsky wrote: post #168
throwaway4good wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US campaign against Huawei and ZTE caused the 5G rollout in the west, including here in Europe, to be considerably delayed and much more expensive.

I participated in technical due diligence for a purchase order of huawei tech back in 2011 (was lte back then). Their tech was good but there is no way in hell there isn’t some kind of trick how cheap they were compared to the europeans (there were no americans at that point since motorola was kaput). Like it was basically free. There needs to be some kind of regulation when techniques like that are being played whet…

Isn't it obvious why it's so much cheaper? Their pricing for market share and cutting costs wherever they can in terms of labour conditions.

I don't see how spending many billions on R&D to develop the most intricately hidden backdoors in human history (that no one has been able to offer proof for) and eating that cost to deploy them when it will all become worthless the moment the first one is detected, makes any sense at all.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#217

Post by mynameisvlad »

rightbyte wrote: post #167
blurbleblurble wrote: post #144

Why are the stakes so high? Well, research "integrated communications and sensing" to find out. IEEE is pushing this paradigm shift. The radio hardware isn't just being used for communications between active devices anymore. It'll be useable for passive and biometric sensing applications, including but not limited to passive localization and identification of people without phones. Next generation wireless standards…

> It'll be useable for passive and biometric sensing applications, including but not limited to passive localization and identification of people without phones. What? How? Why are all these tinfoil hat conspiracies turning into reality ... like your TV or alarm clock spying on you.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2207.04859.pdf

802.11bf is a thing. It doesn’t seem completely out of the picture for such a technology to be abused once it is implemented.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#218

Post by blurbleblurble »

bogomipz wrote: post #210
saurik wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The status from 3 years ago was already pretty scary. https://web.ece.ucsb.edu/~ymostofi/IdentificationThroughWall...

Wow, this is equally fascinating and frightening. Is it correct to say Cross-Modal-ID is an application of "integrated communications and sensing" technology then? Am I understanding relationship correctly?

I'd say that's a good way of putting it, though the way I understand it is that "integrated sensing and communication" is an engineering approach intended to facilitate more applications like this and to push them to the theoretical limits. The main reason being to help communication and sensing applications coexist in the same spectrum.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#219

Post by blurbleblurble »

bogomipz wrote: post #166
blurbleblurble wrote: post #144

Why are the stakes so high? Well, research "integrated communications and sensing" to find out. IEEE is pushing this paradigm shift. The radio hardware isn't just being used for communications between active devices anymore. It'll be useable for passive and biometric sensing applications, including but not limited to passive localization and identification of people without phones. Next generation wireless standards…

Could you elaborate on what exactly "integrated communications and sensing" is and why it's so important here. I tried to do some quick reading but I failed to find any good high level overview of what it is. Most of what I was able to find seemed like academic research papers around beam-forming.

It's an approach to wireless engineering aiming to make it much easier for sensing and communications applications to use the same spectrum simultaneously. There are so many papers on the topic and some of them are more technical but a lot are focused on possible applications. The name "ISAC" is kind of an umbrella term to describe a bunch of different approaches both old and new.

For the passive sensing applications you can mix and match these keywords in Google scholar:

"Device free", "gait recognition", "passive", "localization", "identification", "activity recognition"

For example: "device free localization" is a keyword for papers about tracking people who don't have phones. Another similar one would be "passive identification". You might also try "adversarial localization".

See this paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.11457

And check this out: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=1812720569488179637...

Some of these papers are more than a decade old, and are written about standard WiFi hardware. So for researchers this kind of stuff is old news.

WiFi radiation makes a great source of illumination for sensing applications.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#220

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

lordfrito wrote: post #130
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As was said here, our restrictions on Chinese companies are nothing compared to their restrictions on ours. This is something that is widely believed in the US, but which is not actually true. American companies have very large market shares in many sectors of the Chinese economy. Chinese companies are not active in the US market on any comparable level. China used to have many more restrictions on market entry, bu…

I agree, the sanctions aren't helping the Chinese tech economy. And I also agree that economic warfare has escalated recently. Battle lines have been being drawn for the last decade or so, and now pieces are moving around on the chess board (not just US and China, Russia Ukraine etc) As to how much beyond "not being friends" this is, I'm not sure that protecting the Chinese tech sector is anyone's responsibility but…

> This situation is regrettable for both parties. But resorting to "US bad" and "China victim" here is a gross simplification of the situation.

It's clear which side is the aggressor here. The Chinese government doesn't want a tech war or a trade war, because every year that China can stably develop its economy plays in its favor. The US sees the same situation in exactly the opposite way: every year that China develops economically lessens American dominance.

> Widescale IP theft certainly isn't helping the US tech economy.

You're vastly overstating the importance of IP theft. This is a minor annoyance in the US-China relationship now. China used to have weak IP protections, like most developing countries, but now it has much stricter IP enforcement. If this were just a question of reducing IP theft, China and the US would have little difficulty negotiating a deal. The issue is much deeper: American anxiety about being displaced as the world's top power.

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