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We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

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Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#311

Post by psychoslave »

gwd wrote: post #287
psychoslave wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions." > In other words, Christianity says that far from suffering always being a punishment I fail to see how the first statement is supposed to imply that any suffering is necessarily a punishment for some reason. For example, consider a despot whose stupid decisions only have bad effects on its powerless flock. And even it…

> Is there any religion out there that propose an univocal description universe among which all its faithful agree on? Is there any belief system anywhere such that everyone allegedly on the same side believes exactly the same thing? Does atheism propose a univocal description of the universe which all the "unfaithful" agree on? Do all physicists agree on everything? Do all economists agree on everything? Do all libe…

Apart the belief that there is no deity, atheism doesn't imply anything. It's not a doctrine or an economo-social program per se.

Much like physic, it doesn't prescribe what way is supposedly better to behave. This probably helps much on having broad consensus on very precise statements.

Economics, surely, is closer to a cult. It runs some quantification over the process, but there is always some core doctrine which prescribe what are the relevant metrics. Should biodiversity enter in the equation? Should the feeling of fulfillment of operators be considered? Is animal suffering a concern? Should next human generation be given a sustainable society?

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#312

Post by halpmeh »

compiler-guy wrote: post #310
halpmeh wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I may have used hyperbole, but those were then reasons listed: my family wants me in the religion, my social graph is based around the religion and its rituals, my emotional support comes from the religion. That’s cult-like. I think the main reason we don’t considered religions a cult has nothing to do with the behavior or the participants or their reasons for attendance. We generally consider cults to be…

You missed “the donuts are good” reason. And the detail about varying levels of belief. Emotional support from a caring ear is hardly cult like. “I have friends there” is hardly cult like. On the social graph side, say I used to be really into some charity work, say, like a homeless shelter. I sat on the board and volunteered there for years and years and met many people who became friends. Our kids grew up together…

So organized religions are not cults because some people just show up for the donuts?

You're only trying to add "nuance" because you're intimately familiar with organized religion. When you look at other cults, you say to yourself "obviously that's a cult because they're all zealots." But is that likely to be true? Probably not. Humans always have a wide variety of motivations for the things they do. I'm sure many people have joined cults because they're lonely or hungry.

As for your example with the homeless shelter, it would be a cult if you and the other members were part of the homeless shelter based off of a shared philosophy that was given to you from birth that involved practicing arcane rituals worshiping an ancient deity.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#313

Post by imwillofficial »

_def wrote: post #146
imwillofficial wrote: post #44

“cognitive dissonance” has to be the most over-used psychobable word ever.

Is it over used? Probably. But how is it psycho babble? I thought here it was used in a way true to its original meaning.

Cognitive dissonance is not some scientifically shown fact. It’s a guess at what’s happening.

It’s pseudo science at best, psychobable at worst.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#314

Post by compiler-guy »

halpmeh wrote: post #312
compiler-guy wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed “the donuts are good” reason. And the detail about varying levels of belief. Emotional support from a caring ear is hardly cult like. “I have friends there” is hardly cult like. On the social graph side, say I used to be really into some charity work, say, like a homeless shelter. I sat on the board and volunteered there for years and years and met many people who became friends. Our kids grew up together…

So organized religions are not cults because some people just show up for the donuts? You're only trying to add "nuance" because you're intimately familiar with organized religion. When you look at other cults, you say to yourself "obviously that's a cult because they're all zealots." But is that likely to be true? Probably not. Humans always have a wide variety of motivations for the things they do. I'm sure many pe…

The donuts example is that some people go not for any shared belief, but for a material benefit that cynically uses the group’s goodwill. But your choice of sarcasm and “boy isn’t this ridiculous” rhetoric shows that you aren’t even attempting to steelman the argument. Therefore I’ll end with this one last post.

And rereading your very first response, I should have caught this earlier:

My arguments I haven’t once made the claim that these bigger religions aren’t cults; I haven’t made any claim in that department.

My claim are about why people attend. More specifically, that there is a wide variety of reasons that aren’t because they aren’t believers.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#315

Post by kcplate »

halpmeh wrote: post #312
compiler-guy wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed “the donuts are good” reason. And the detail about varying levels of belief. Emotional support from a caring ear is hardly cult like. “I have friends there” is hardly cult like. On the social graph side, say I used to be really into some charity work, say, like a homeless shelter. I sat on the board and volunteered there for years and years and met many people who became friends. Our kids grew up together…

So organized religions are not cults because some people just show up for the donuts? You're only trying to add "nuance" because you're intimately familiar with organized religion. When you look at other cults, you say to yourself "obviously that's a cult because they're all zealots." But is that likely to be true? Probably not. Humans always have a wide variety of motivations for the things they do. I'm sure many pe…

> that involved practicing arcane rituals worshiping an ancient deity

Adding this seems to betray your intent. While worship of a deity might be a practice of some cults, not every cult worships a deity. Conversely, not every religion that worships a deity could be a called a cult. You including it makes it the defining factor in your example above, beyond the standard common features present in many communities and organizations of people.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#316

Post by mistermann »

andrewla wrote: post #279
mistermann wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not Christian; these are not things important to me, but they are part of the operational definition of a classical cult, which NXIVM is not, in that sense. Could you possibly link to this singular, authoritative (and non-contested) "operational definition of a classical cult"? > Why use the label cult? As a rhetorical device, that's fine, but don't present it to me as an absolute. Only your absolute definitio…

The thing about operational usage is that they don't need a definition, nor do they purport to be absolute, but strictly context-dependent. That's what operational means in this context. For a Christian worried about a congregant joining an organization, if they required those things then it would be considered a "cult" (also usually required here is that it be a small organization). I do not have an absolute definit…

> I do not have an absolute definition!

Unless you're being deliberately ironic for effect and it's going over my head, are you not saying religion is an absolute requirement for a cult?

> The usage of "cult" only works because we have a shared cultural experience with the notion of cult. and invoking that when referring to things like NXIVM is a rhetorical device, nothing more.

Another shared cultural experience is delusions of omniscience.

> If you could make a strong statement; "they exhibited the following cult-like attributes, and in consequence, like every organization with those attributes, they also exhibited these behaviors" then you're on to something; you're doing observational sociology.

Until our culture can take the distinction between reality and perception of it seriously, such observational sociology will operate on a platform of delusion.

That said, starting with this and dealing with the psychological issues later seems like a very reasonable strategy.

> But here all you're really saying is "they are super double bad", which is, okay, fine, but you can just call them fascists or communists or something else that people hate and it has the same impact.

A problem: this did not actually occur (this is an extremely common behavior that ideally would be persuaded out of people somehow....but I suspect you are averse to even discussing it).

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#317

Post by halpmeh »

kcplate wrote: post #315
halpmeh wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So organized religions are not cults because some people just show up for the donuts? You're only trying to add "nuance" because you're intimately familiar with organized religion. When you look at other cults, you say to yourself "obviously that's a cult because they're all zealots." But is that likely to be true? Probably not. Humans always have a wide variety of motivations for the things they do. I'm sure many pe…

> that involved practicing arcane rituals worshiping an ancient deity Adding this seems to betray your intent. While worship of a deity might be a practice of some cults, not every cult worships a deity. Conversely, not every religion that worships a deity could be a called a cult. You including it makes it the defining factor in your example above, beyond the standard common features present in many communities and…

You're cherry picking here. Worshiping the deity was one of the characteristics, the rest being: ritualistic meetings, social fulfillment, familial pressure to be a member of the group, indoctrination from an early age, and emotional support from group leaders. If you pick any of these characteristics individually, you could easily say "not all cults do X, and not all religions are a cult." But taken together, they suggest that many religions are cults.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#318

Post by kcplate »

halpmeh wrote: post #317
kcplate wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that involved practicing arcane rituals worshiping an ancient deity Adding this seems to betray your intent. While worship of a deity might be a practice of some cults, not every cult worships a deity. Conversely, not every religion that worships a deity could be a called a cult. You including it makes it the defining factor in your example above, beyond the standard common features present in many communities and…

You're cherry picking here. Worshiping the deity was one of the characteristics, the rest being: ritualistic meetings, social fulfillment, familial pressure to be a member of the group, indoctrination from an early age, and emotional support from group leaders. If you pick any of these characteristics individually, you could easily say "not all cults do X, and not all religions are a cult." But taken together, they s…

> You're cherry picking here.

I think you did exactly that in the prior comment. You opined that if from birth the people serving or socializing in the homeless organization incorporated some sort of supernatural element it would be a cult. It feels to me like there is a prejudice against religion with your comments. Bear in mind, I am not criticizing an opposition to religion, just that religion on its face != cult. Narrowing it down to a single element dilutes the definition of a cult.

There is a far cry of difference between the Peoples Temple and the Branch Dravidian’s from the local Lutheran and Methodist churches down the street. The two former being commonly understood as a cult, where the two latter would not be commonly understood to be a cult. But all four had that “ancient deity” worship component, but two of them were unequivocally dangerous where two are essentially harmless organizations.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#319

Post by throw_away765 »

drewbug01 wrote: post #130

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They hav…

I experienced "the ongoing heartbreak" of losing my family, relatives, friends and social life when I started reading the Bible... So did I also left some kind of cult? The "free liberals" will disconnect from you these days if you are "too conservative"... I thought the liberalism is accepting all different opinions...

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#320

Post by brutusborn »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #83
brutusborn wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So cult == community? As a bit of a libertarian, this struck me as anti-Statist (i.e. modern secular states are basically cults)

Is there no libertarian community? In the sense of a group who think similarly and are suspicious and somewhat hostile to those who think differently?

There's definitely libertarian communities. Although I'm sure they can become cultish, I imagine they are much less likely to become cultish than the state, since libertarian ideals would mean those communities produce more liberal ideas and thus less group think.

I wouldn't expect the Libertarian Party to become fascist but crazier things have happened.

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