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We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

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Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I wouldn't say "mired", but I do agree that I'm the only one directly addressing the distinction between substance and semantics. I do not agree about the list. That list is there to win semantic arguments about whether something is a cult or not. Nothing to do with harm; you can argue that some of the criteria, like "shame cycles" are harmful in and of themselves, but most are harmless attributes. Apply it to…

No, the list is diagnostic, in the same way that lists of behaviors and experiences that may indicate depression, bpd, or any psychological state/disorder is. The list is "you may be in a cult if", not "lol it's totally a cult nerd, look at this definitive list" I agree that people use "cult" too quickly. But that doesn't mean that a list like that isn't helpful. Plus if your kids soccer team "delegitimizes former me…

Well, obviously don't get me started on psychological classification and diagnostic criteria. Those only work because a trained practicing psychologist can tell the difference between the ordinary form and the pathological form of those criteria (subjectively and through experience); in the hands of a layman they might as well be a recipe for hypochondria.

The real question someone is asking when they ask "am I in a cult" is not about whether you can mark your religion as "cult" on your taxes. The question is "am I in danger of harm", and it is better to ask yourself that question directly -- is there sexual or physical abuse among the members; is there a financial obligation; does the group engage in abusive punishments or penalties. If it does those things who cares if it's a cult or not; get the hell out!

For the soccer team analogy a simple colloquial reading is fine -- "delegitimizes former members" : "quitters" -- "paranoid about the outside world" : "refs are crooked" -- "shame cycles" : well, that one is pretty bad, but it is not unusual for people to get significant personal gratification and the respect of your teammates for excellent performance, and to feel shame for failures.

Sure, subjectivity is part of it too. But if you're looking for diagnostic criteria in that list, you have to implicitly add "in a cult-like manner" to all of the criteria, and rely on the common subjective understanding of what a "cult" is to determine if they apply.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#282
post #154
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the problem thinking they're trying to address here is the idea, "I'm suffering because I've done something bad and am being punished by God." But if they think this kind of thinking is directly linked to religion, then it's just ignorance and bigotry. Consider the folloing quote: "Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions." The people I know who most…

With due respect, many survivors of religion appreciate the harm that magical thinking causes, to which remaining adherents interpret as bigotry since to recognize said issue generates significant pain and cognitive dissonance. To acknowledge such is not bigotry but lived experience of exiting organizations that do not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. Is your counterthesis that the article is bigoted beca…

With due respect, you can't say "respect" and then "magical thinking" in the same sentence. More than that, "magical thinking" is basically content-free: you haven't actually described what behavior or ideas you're object to, so there's nothing really to say in response.

Your one concrete accusation is about people "exiting organizations that do not allow you to leave with your dignity intact". But that's 1) not specific to religious organizations 2) not a feature of all religious organizations. Try leaving the Chinese Communist Party, for instance, without leaving China. And while I'm sure that my Christian friends and family would be disappointed if I became an atheist, I don't think their disappointment and opposition would really be that much more than you'd get from your atheist friends and family if you decided to become a Christian.

I know that there certainly are religious organizations where that's not the case -- where they're much more willing to use guilt, or social ostracism, or even harassment to try to punish you for leaving; but that's just wrong. That's never how Jesus operated.

Put it this way. Are people harmed by the current medical system? Yes. Should we completely get rid of all doctors and hospitals and everything? No -- we should strive to root out the bad actors and correct the systems and culture which allow harm to take place.

Are people harmed by bad police departments? Yes. Should we completely get rid of all police departments? Some people say yes, but I disagree. We should strive to root out the bad actors and correct the systems and culture which allow the harm to take place.

Are people harmed by bad governmental policies? Yes. Should we completely get rid of the government? Again, some people say yes, but I disagree. I think we should strive to root out bad actors and correct the systems and culture which allow the harm to take place.

Jesus' bitterest enemies were the religious leaders of his day: and what really made him angry was the harm they caused to ordinary people. (Some quotes at the bottom.) Insofar as the "harm" you have in mind is genuine harm, it's probably something Jesus has already objected to.

Getting back to "ignorant and bigoted": I said that if the think that "I'm suffering so I must have done something bad" has a 1-1 link with religion, they are ignorant and bigoted.

They're ignorant because they're wrong in both directions: Many atheists do think that way, and many religious people do not think that way.

It's not bigoted be ignorant: if you don't know that many religions teach that God allows good people to suffer to accomplish higher goals, then you don't know. But if you judge people without actually taking the time to find out what they actually believe, then you are bigoted.

---

Here are some things Jesus said about some of the religious people of his day. No Christian should read these without taking a good look at their own life to make sure they aren't implicated as well:

"Woe to you, [religious people], you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

"Woe to you, [religious people], you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

"...Woe to you, [religious people], you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

"Woe to you, [religious people], you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

"Woe to you, [religious people], you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

"...You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agile is synonymous with bad agile. If you really are doing good agile as a company you need to say how to be believed.

Step 1) Switch to Azure DevOps, or literally anything else, from Jira Step 2) ??? Step 3) Enjoy your good agile.

Thanks for the keyword "Azure DevOps" I would have never guessed it was that. For Microsoft centric Engineering teams, it might be an easier sell. Then again Azure tends to like to cancel services. Although they are very nice and support those cancelled things for quite a while first.

I also don't see how JIRA can make things bad. I mean bad to use the software maybe, but it is not really enforcing a type of agile onto anyone.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#284
Its funny to read what reads to me as Hacker News middle-class contrarianism about how silly people use the term cult, when I grew up with parents in actual cults that led me to going in foster care and ultimately severing all ties to them due to their dangerous behavior.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN needs spoiler tags. But since I'm shadow banned. There is an answer, I found it outside of the story. But this a a good hint. I incorrectly chose the wrong X from these lines. It does narrow it down. The "buttons" threw me. Still not sure what they represent.

You are not shadowbanned.

They are shadow banned, I vouched for this comment. If you look at their comment history, you'll see.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#287
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the problem thinking they're trying to address here is the idea, "I'm suffering because I've done something bad and am being punished by God." But if they think this kind of thinking is directly linked to religion, then it's just ignorance and bigotry. Consider the folloing quote: "Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions." The people I know who most…

> "Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions." > In other words, Christianity says that far from suffering always being a punishment I fail to see how the first statement is supposed to imply that any suffering is necessarily a punishment for some reason. For example, consider a despot whose stupid decisions only have bad effects on its powerless flock. And even it…

> Is there any religion out there that propose an univocal description universe among which all its faithful agree on?

Is there any belief system anywhere such that everyone allegedly on the same side believes exactly the same thing? Does atheism propose a univocal description of the universe which all the "unfaithful" agree on?

Do all physicists agree on everything? Do all economists agree on everything? Do all liberals (or all conservatives) agree 100% on every policy? Does a diversity of belief in any other area of life mean that the whole think is bunk, and that nobody is right about anything?

The world is a complicated place, and the truth is hard to find; moreover, even the best of us distort reality because we find the truth uncomfortable. That doesn't mean that there's no truth, or that some answers aren't better that other other answers. This applies as much to religion as to anything else in the world.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. On the contrary in the case of HN it fits most criteria perfectly 1. Elevation of someone to diety status (Graham, ) 2. Shunning outsiders (mocking redditors, another cult) 3. Enforced group think through shame rituals ("As a..." response posts, downvoting). 4. Belief that the HN system is superior to all other systems HN, like nearly ALL modern startu…

You're conflating the HN "hivemind" with the individual members. I doubt most HN users check all 4 boxes. E.g. I read Reddit and don't elevate startup founders to deity status. I'm also not ostracized for these views.

Sure, and the downvotes of this criticism make it obvious the hivemind thinks it's free. A classic trope of cults. They are the free ones and everyone outside is not.

Hilarious, really. It goes along with the almost metastatic, terminal, pseudo-intellectualism this site is known for.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step 1) Switch to Azure DevOps, or literally anything else, from Jira Step 2) ??? Step 3) Enjoy your good agile.

Thanks for the keyword "Azure DevOps" I would have never guessed it was that. For Microsoft centric Engineering teams, it might be an easier sell. Then again Azure tends to like to cancel services. Although they are very nice and support those cancelled things for quite a while first. I also don't see how JIRA can make things bad. I mean bad to use the software maybe, but it is not really enforcing a type of agile on…

Sure, this is nothing about being "Microsoft" or "Linux" centric, you can use it as a ticketing and CICD tool that literally has plugins to connect to AWS or GCP through terraform cli stages and deploy from there. Azure DevOps is about as centric to Microsoft as Jira is to Canonical in terms of service functionality. If your only criteria for tool selection is "MS bad" you might want reconsider how you evaluate your tool set. I say this as someone who started out using Linux, still uses Linux for the majority of their job, and uses a MacBook Pro for work and personal use, outside of gaming of course. The only things we use in Azure specifically are Active Directory and Azure DevOps, which again, right tool for the right job. You probably wouldn't want to attempt using FreeIPA because "MS bad" when AD has already been production ready for years. And again, there is no way you will be able to see how JIRA does things wrong if it's the first and only tool you ever use. Search functionality is a relative dream in Azure DevOps, for starters.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that there is no one Christian teaching. I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. Trying to claim there is one “true” interpretation and all others are fringe is folly. What is true to one group is a cult belief to another. If you want to claim that your Christian beliefs don't include that definition of hell, you’d have a much better a…

> I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. This seems fishy to me. I'm sure you know (or know of) many people who you label in the category of devout Christians who believe in the existence of hell. It is a biblical teaching after all. But have you pressure tested their views in deep conversation to see if they hold to a 'literal fire and brimstone…

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